Since this is now the political forum: Immigration Q?
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Originally Posted by Kenn
Immigration is the key to the nation's prosperity. Without an increasing population and economic market, America loses the drive that funds scientific, technological, and military research, social programs, even business growth, and thus supports our standard of living and position of global leadership.
By 2100, most of Europe's population will be half of what it is today. In that same time, Japan's population will be 1/4 its current size. In fact, the United States is THE ONLY industrialized nation in the world to maintain population growth. This is ONLY possible because of immigration - US residents have been reproducing at below the total fertility rate needed to offset death rates for decades now. Meanwhile, population centers in Asia and the Middle East will continue to grow, and India will soon replace China as the world's most populous nation. It's an indication of a massive shift in world paradigm, and if the US was as protectionist and xenophobic as most Europe states have historically been, we'd soon find ourselves in the periphery of the world stage.
By 2100, most of Europe's population will be half of what it is today. In that same time, Japan's population will be 1/4 its current size. In fact, the United States is THE ONLY industrialized nation in the world to maintain population growth. This is ONLY possible because of immigration - US residents have been reproducing at below the total fertility rate needed to offset death rates for decades now. Meanwhile, population centers in Asia and the Middle East will continue to grow, and India will soon replace China as the world's most populous nation. It's an indication of a massive shift in world paradigm, and if the US was as protectionist and xenophobic as most Europe states have historically been, we'd soon find ourselves in the periphery of the world stage.
You think the U.S. needs immigration to have an expanding population to succeed?
Do you realize that the hispanic population is growing exponentially, but rather than generating new innovation and a "national competitive advantage," it's a tax on our social system.
...and I thought I was dumb......
Last edited by HellaDumb; Jun 17, 2004 at 09:51 AM.
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Originally Posted by dahveed
but it makes me ashamed of white people for not being willing to accept this kind of work...I mean, can't those guys with the "help me I'm homeless" people work the fields???
I know what you mean. I am a winemaker, and I manage a small vinyard; I've stopped even asking the trustifarian panhandlers downtown in Santa Cruz if they want to work... they whine like hell after an hour or two, and they NEVER come back for a second day.
The best compliment I ever got in the vinyard was from the Mexican forman of a small crew that we had in to help planting... "That guy is pretty fast, for a white guy".
Seriously: I think everyone should do this kind of work for a week, just as a reality check.
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Originally Posted by HellaDumb
Do you realize that the hispanic population is growing exponentially, but rather than generating new innovation and a "national competitive advantage," it's a tax on our social system.
um...
Do you realize that ALL populations grow (or decrease) exponentially? That's just how the equation with the little "e to the x" works...
As for a tax on our social system; All of those people who are working non cash-under-the-table jobs (which is most of them) will NEVER see all of the income that is witheld from each paychek. I all just disappears into the "social system".
Originally Posted by HellaDumb
...and I thought I was dumb......
M
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Originally Posted by BluBuru
I know what you mean. I am a winemaker, and I manage a small vinyard; I've stopped even asking the trustifarian panhandlers downtown in Santa Cruz if they want to work... they whine like hell after an hour or two, and they NEVER come back for a second day.
The best compliment I ever got in the vinyard was from the Mexican forman of a small crew that we had in to help planting... "That guy is pretty fast, for a white guy".
Seriously: I think everyone should do this kind of work for a week, just as a reality check.
The best compliment I ever got in the vinyard was from the Mexican forman of a small crew that we had in to help planting... "That guy is pretty fast, for a white guy".
Seriously: I think everyone should do this kind of work for a week, just as a reality check.
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Originally Posted by OneManArmy
what winery? I am from santa cruz. My brother is coming back from working at a lake all summer up by shasta and he may need some work in septish. He busts his ***...might be a stoner but he works hard.
Feel free to PM me about it. I don't know how much work we'll have in Sept, and the new owners have a teenage boy who will be helping out durring summer, but if there's extra work at the winery or vinyard, I'd be happy to have him.
(unfortunately, we usually pick our vinyard by mid-september.)
Later,
Mike
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I will have to go read up on all the posts to see exactly what we are talking about..only caught up on page 2.
But as for me. I like the fact that we have so much cultural diversity. Especially in places like the bay area and new york. I mean we have the best damn food in the world man. Everything...and at top quality. I think it's a benefit to our country. I like that our children our exposed to people of different race and country at early ages now so they can grow to appreciate people as people and not look so heavily upon color. I like that there are more opportunities to learn foreign languages and learn about foreign cultures. I mean my friends daughter i like 11 and she is working on 3 languages right now.
My only beef is with people that come here and are not productive citizens. Live on welfare by choice and often abuse the system. Live here illegally and don't pay taxes. Move into china town, or down town fremont (little afganistan), or things like that. Form there own little nation and don't learn about our culture and participate in it. Don't learn the language etc. I have run into more people than I can count that have lived here for 20plus years and still don't speak proper english. I sorry to sound like an *** hole but that pisses me off. If I moved to any no primary english speaking country in the world I would speak fluant whatever in the first couple years and be able to handle myself in the first 6 months to a year. I wouldn't go plant myself in little america in the middle of hong kong and refuse to learn chinese.
It hurts them as much as it pisses me off.
I am also bothered by the amount of "benefits" we give people based purely on race. I understand that back in the day we had slaves so the blacks got jacked and we killed nearly every damn indian in north america that didn't run and hide in canada or go to mexico. I understand this. But this nation is young as was founded on such bull crap. When the Irish first came over they were the cheap labor and "dirty" group. The Jews. The japanese got screwed in WWII. I can see all of that. But does that mean that joe white kid raised by a single mom, worked their asses off living in the ghetto shouldn't get the grants offered to blacks, indians, any non white race has offered to them? Hell no..that's bull****. And I actually know a little something about this. I grew up a ward of the state. Orphan status. My mom was murdered and my step dad committed suicide the next morning. My dad is or was a raging drunk I don't know where he is. When I went to college I knew a girl that got a full ride based on orphan status so I went through the chanels and applied for everything I could. I got $500 a semester and a very small grant..>VERY SMALL. I couldn't pay for ****. But she got a full ride...why....she is mexican. Even though she got adopted and raised in one of the richest neighborhoods in santa cruz county.
That is what bugs me. We need to reevaluate our systems. Start rewarding on work, skill, achievement, harship. Stop making excuses for racest minorities by using a word that makes no sense.....REVERSE RACISISM. What the **** is that...so only white people can be racist? Stop making excuses for people that feel sorry for themselves and don't work to get out of their situations because they are forced to be there...stepped on by the man and what not. Stop making excuses for laziness. This country is going down the **** hole and fast because our future is not taking advantage of their opportunity to get educated. They are not learning how to work hard and fight for what's there to fight for. If we don't start changing something we are gonna colapse. We are gonna servive on the technology of other nations. The minds of other nations.
Sorry for my rant.
So in short. I don't look down on immigration. But I don't think we should pay cultures to come in the country because we wronged them in the past. I don't think we should give based on race and I don't think you should come to my country and refuse to participate in it's culture and society.
But as for me. I like the fact that we have so much cultural diversity. Especially in places like the bay area and new york. I mean we have the best damn food in the world man. Everything...and at top quality. I think it's a benefit to our country. I like that our children our exposed to people of different race and country at early ages now so they can grow to appreciate people as people and not look so heavily upon color. I like that there are more opportunities to learn foreign languages and learn about foreign cultures. I mean my friends daughter i like 11 and she is working on 3 languages right now.
My only beef is with people that come here and are not productive citizens. Live on welfare by choice and often abuse the system. Live here illegally and don't pay taxes. Move into china town, or down town fremont (little afganistan), or things like that. Form there own little nation and don't learn about our culture and participate in it. Don't learn the language etc. I have run into more people than I can count that have lived here for 20plus years and still don't speak proper english. I sorry to sound like an *** hole but that pisses me off. If I moved to any no primary english speaking country in the world I would speak fluant whatever in the first couple years and be able to handle myself in the first 6 months to a year. I wouldn't go plant myself in little america in the middle of hong kong and refuse to learn chinese.
It hurts them as much as it pisses me off.
I am also bothered by the amount of "benefits" we give people based purely on race. I understand that back in the day we had slaves so the blacks got jacked and we killed nearly every damn indian in north america that didn't run and hide in canada or go to mexico. I understand this. But this nation is young as was founded on such bull crap. When the Irish first came over they were the cheap labor and "dirty" group. The Jews. The japanese got screwed in WWII. I can see all of that. But does that mean that joe white kid raised by a single mom, worked their asses off living in the ghetto shouldn't get the grants offered to blacks, indians, any non white race has offered to them? Hell no..that's bull****. And I actually know a little something about this. I grew up a ward of the state. Orphan status. My mom was murdered and my step dad committed suicide the next morning. My dad is or was a raging drunk I don't know where he is. When I went to college I knew a girl that got a full ride based on orphan status so I went through the chanels and applied for everything I could. I got $500 a semester and a very small grant..>VERY SMALL. I couldn't pay for ****. But she got a full ride...why....she is mexican. Even though she got adopted and raised in one of the richest neighborhoods in santa cruz county.
That is what bugs me. We need to reevaluate our systems. Start rewarding on work, skill, achievement, harship. Stop making excuses for racest minorities by using a word that makes no sense.....REVERSE RACISISM. What the **** is that...so only white people can be racist? Stop making excuses for people that feel sorry for themselves and don't work to get out of their situations because they are forced to be there...stepped on by the man and what not. Stop making excuses for laziness. This country is going down the **** hole and fast because our future is not taking advantage of their opportunity to get educated. They are not learning how to work hard and fight for what's there to fight for. If we don't start changing something we are gonna colapse. We are gonna servive on the technology of other nations. The minds of other nations.
Sorry for my rant.
So in short. I don't look down on immigration. But I don't think we should pay cultures to come in the country because we wronged them in the past. I don't think we should give based on race and I don't think you should come to my country and refuse to participate in it's culture and society.
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that was hardcore. read this book: Race Matters by Cornel West. You would probably dig it
brings up to big points:
1. personal accountability
2. need-based assistance / social reform
On a personal note, I am going to grad school to study social policy because of issues such as this. the gap between the "have" and "have-nots" is ever increasing, and we need radically new policies to get us back in the right direction
brings up to big points:
1. personal accountability
2. need-based assistance / social reform
On a personal note, I am going to grad school to study social policy because of issues such as this. the gap between the "have" and "have-nots" is ever increasing, and we need radically new policies to get us back in the right direction
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Originally Posted by dub2w
that was hardcore. read this book: Race Matters by Cornel West. You would probably dig it
brings up to big points:
1. personal accountability
2. need-based assistance / social reform
On a personal note, I am going to grad school to study social policy because of issues such as this. the gap between the "have" and "have-nots" is ever increasing, and we need radically new policies to get us back in the right direction
brings up to big points:
1. personal accountability
2. need-based assistance / social reform
On a personal note, I am going to grad school to study social policy because of issues such as this. the gap between the "have" and "have-nots" is ever increasing, and we need radically new policies to get us back in the right direction
good for you man. We need more people getting into that. This country is definately loosing the middle class. It's designed to keep the rich getting richer. And it hard for the poor to get up. And tough for the middle class to not end up poor trying to get up.
Perfect example...my company. They tried to take the bonus' away from everyone and layed off 14k people in one year. But then it came out that the ceo..already making millions and having access to huge travel funds, a personal jet and 2 company cars was getting an $18million bonus. It's a constant deal with the top dogs...we all got our bonus' that year...at 50% but at least we got something.
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Originally Posted by OneManArmy
I will have to go read up on all the posts to see exactly what we are talking about..only caught up on page 2.
But as for me. I like the fact that we have so much cultural diversity. Especially in places like the bay area and new york. I mean we have the best damn food in the world man. Everything...and at top quality. I think it's a benefit to our country. I like that our children our exposed to people of different race and country at early ages now so they can grow to appreciate people as people and not look so heavily upon color. I like that there are more opportunities to learn foreign languages and learn about foreign cultures. I mean my friends daughter i like 11 and she is working on 3 languages right now.
My only beef is with people that come here and are not productive citizens. Live on welfare by choice and often abuse the system. Live here illegally and don't pay taxes. Move into china town, or down town fremont (little afganistan), or things like that. Form there own little nation and don't learn about our culture and participate in it. Don't learn the language etc. I have run into more people than I can count that have lived here for 20plus years and still don't speak proper english. I sorry to sound like an *** hole but that pisses me off. If I moved to any no primary english speaking country in the world I would speak fluant whatever in the first couple years and be able to handle myself in the first 6 months to a year. I wouldn't go plant myself in little america in the middle of hong kong and refuse to learn chinese.
It hurts them as much as it pisses me off.
I am also bothered by the amount of "benefits" we give people based purely on race. I understand that back in the day we had slaves so the blacks got jacked and we killed nearly every damn indian in north america that didn't run and hide in canada or go to mexico. I understand this. But this nation is young as was founded on such bull crap. When the Irish first came over they were the cheap labor and "dirty" group. The Jews. The japanese got screwed in WWII. I can see all of that. But does that mean that joe white kid raised by a single mom, worked their asses off living in the ghetto shouldn't get the grants offered to blacks, indians, any non white race has offered to them? Hell no..that's bull****. And I actually know a little something about this. I grew up a ward of the state. Orphan status. My mom was murdered and my step dad committed suicide the next morning. My dad is or was a raging drunk I don't know where he is. When I went to college I knew a girl that got a full ride based on orphan status so I went through the chanels and applied for everything I could. I got $500 a semester and a very small grant..>VERY SMALL. I couldn't pay for ****. But she got a full ride...why....she is mexican. Even though she got adopted and raised in one of the richest neighborhoods in santa cruz county.
That is what bugs me. We need to reevaluate our systems. Start rewarding on work, skill, achievement, harship. Stop making excuses for racest minorities by using a word that makes no sense.....REVERSE RACISISM. What the **** is that...so only white people can be racist? Stop making excuses for people that feel sorry for themselves and don't work to get out of their situations because they are forced to be there...stepped on by the man and what not. Stop making excuses for laziness. This country is going down the **** hole and fast because our future is not taking advantage of their opportunity to get educated. They are not learning how to work hard and fight for what's there to fight for. If we don't start changing something we are gonna colapse. We are gonna servive on the technology of other nations. The minds of other nations.
Sorry for my rant.
So in short. I don't look down on immigration. But I don't think we should pay cultures to come in the country because we wronged them in the past. I don't think we should give based on race and I don't think you should come to my country and refuse to participate in it's culture and society.
But as for me. I like the fact that we have so much cultural diversity. Especially in places like the bay area and new york. I mean we have the best damn food in the world man. Everything...and at top quality. I think it's a benefit to our country. I like that our children our exposed to people of different race and country at early ages now so they can grow to appreciate people as people and not look so heavily upon color. I like that there are more opportunities to learn foreign languages and learn about foreign cultures. I mean my friends daughter i like 11 and she is working on 3 languages right now.
My only beef is with people that come here and are not productive citizens. Live on welfare by choice and often abuse the system. Live here illegally and don't pay taxes. Move into china town, or down town fremont (little afganistan), or things like that. Form there own little nation and don't learn about our culture and participate in it. Don't learn the language etc. I have run into more people than I can count that have lived here for 20plus years and still don't speak proper english. I sorry to sound like an *** hole but that pisses me off. If I moved to any no primary english speaking country in the world I would speak fluant whatever in the first couple years and be able to handle myself in the first 6 months to a year. I wouldn't go plant myself in little america in the middle of hong kong and refuse to learn chinese.
It hurts them as much as it pisses me off.
I am also bothered by the amount of "benefits" we give people based purely on race. I understand that back in the day we had slaves so the blacks got jacked and we killed nearly every damn indian in north america that didn't run and hide in canada or go to mexico. I understand this. But this nation is young as was founded on such bull crap. When the Irish first came over they were the cheap labor and "dirty" group. The Jews. The japanese got screwed in WWII. I can see all of that. But does that mean that joe white kid raised by a single mom, worked their asses off living in the ghetto shouldn't get the grants offered to blacks, indians, any non white race has offered to them? Hell no..that's bull****. And I actually know a little something about this. I grew up a ward of the state. Orphan status. My mom was murdered and my step dad committed suicide the next morning. My dad is or was a raging drunk I don't know where he is. When I went to college I knew a girl that got a full ride based on orphan status so I went through the chanels and applied for everything I could. I got $500 a semester and a very small grant..>VERY SMALL. I couldn't pay for ****. But she got a full ride...why....she is mexican. Even though she got adopted and raised in one of the richest neighborhoods in santa cruz county.
That is what bugs me. We need to reevaluate our systems. Start rewarding on work, skill, achievement, harship. Stop making excuses for racest minorities by using a word that makes no sense.....REVERSE RACISISM. What the **** is that...so only white people can be racist? Stop making excuses for people that feel sorry for themselves and don't work to get out of their situations because they are forced to be there...stepped on by the man and what not. Stop making excuses for laziness. This country is going down the **** hole and fast because our future is not taking advantage of their opportunity to get educated. They are not learning how to work hard and fight for what's there to fight for. If we don't start changing something we are gonna colapse. We are gonna servive on the technology of other nations. The minds of other nations.
Sorry for my rant.
So in short. I don't look down on immigration. But I don't think we should pay cultures to come in the country because we wronged them in the past. I don't think we should give based on race and I don't think you should come to my country and refuse to participate in it's culture and society.
I know Asian immigrants who came here dirt poor, and they worked their asses off and now have realized "the american dream." Heck, they have a much nicer house than mine (paid for) and a lot of $$ in the bank.
I also know immigrant leaches who work the system, getting a free-ride including low-income housing while buying expensive cars.
That's why Pay Day is Mother's Day... because our taxes are paying for many immigrants to raise their babies!
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