Originally Posted by I<3subie

Because the BAR would send in a test car. And the customer wouldnt be standing there.
Matter a fact you would never now till after they had proof and busted you for what was going on.

Thats a whole other thread.. Lets get back to tuning...

Anyone ?

So how many timng maps are in a 2007 STi ...

Originally Posted by irrational x

im sure the BAR runs a massive undercover program to expose illegal tuners that requires BAR officials to:
1.) go (convincingly) under cover as tuners
2.) spend money on cars that a tuner would actually touch.

even a **** tuner wont touch a **** car, so how is the BAR going to spend money for overtime on all the personnel and purchase adequate cars to conduct such a sting whilest having a budget smaller than mine?

QED

Originally Posted by VRT MBasile

What the tuner/shop does to the car doesn't matter, its driving a car with said stuff done with it on a public road that is illegal. You can run an open DP on your Suby all you want and it wont be illegal if you're on your private property or at a shop. It's when the customer goes and drives it away from the shop on public roads that is illegal. Is GST going to be shut down for building a race car? Multiple ones at that. No. Building them is not illegal, driving them on the road is.

[/slightdiversion]

Originally Posted by I<3subie

Your missing the point... If the shop knows the part they are installing is going to be used on the street, They can be held liable by the Epa or BAR.

Ask perrin about thos o2 sims they were making. Why do motorcycle dealers no longer install aftermarket systems. Why are almost all motorcycle systems coming with a carb cert?

Only small chance not to get busted is if you write on the work order race track use only. But then again. We all now a street car from a race car.

I could go on and on. I deal with this stuff all the time. Remember.. That cheap customer will always look to place blame on someone else.

So if your installing or doing "race" stuff on street cars.. I'd keep a eye out...

Originally Posted by I<3subie

Go read up on wat happen to dynojet and their dealers last year, Full search warrent to dynojet turning over dealer info. Then each dealer got a search warrent for customer info. Then 200K fines went out.

You think its not a real deal?
You think BAR or the epa doesnt have the time or money to do undercover stings?

Originally Posted by cyrilhuzeblog.com

The California Air Resources Board (CARB) announced recently that it concluded an investigation against Dynojet Research, Inc. At issue was the company’s "Power Commander" that can be used to alter the air-fuel mixture and engine timing of on- and off-road motorcycles. CARB said that the installation of these devices would adversely affect the emissions control systems of vehicles that were certified by the original equipment manufacturers to comply with the agency’s emissions standards. Dynojet has now certified a California version of the "Power Commander" and has agreed to pay $1,000,000 in penalties to the California Air Pollution Control Fund. Dynojet Research.

Originally Posted by EQ Tuning

Eric,

I'm sorry I have been unresponsive. This whole ATR thing caught all the Protuners by surprise and everyone is scrambling to figure out their position on the matter. Cobb gave us no notice that this was being released and certainly did not consult with us about any concerns we might have. Based on the discussions in the Protuner forums, I doubt you'll find a Protuner who will be willing to convert their tuned map into ATR format and hand it over.

I will not be giving out ATR versions of my tunes. I do completely support and urge customers to perform data logging, but giving out my maps in a format that can easily be edited, copied, and handed out, makes no sense at all for my business. We all spent countless hours developing our maps and our methods and expecting us to all of a sudden hand out our hard work is unrealistic. Both in terms of intellectual property as well as liability. It seems like all the good tuners out there share this sentiment, so I hope the public can understand our position.

If someone would like to tune their car themselves using ATR, Cobb provides some decent maps as starting points. I urge people to use these instead of asking their tuners. Even better, start with a stock map like many of us did and spend the necessary time to learn and figure out how the ECU works and what you need to do to make it run well. Tuning is by no means rocket science, but its also not as simple as plugging in a few numbers. Having to start from scratch may give people more of an appreciation for what we do and the time we've invested into our work.

FYI, I have been trying to get Cobb to release a standalone logger for quite some time now, but it doesn't look like there is a real timeline for it yet. I believe this would have been a much better move on their part. In the meantime, there are several free logging options available.

Thanks

Originally Posted by Mr. Xevious

er.. maybe you need to re-read this

http://www.cyrilhuzeblog.com/2008/01...wer-commander/



sounds like Dynojet got busted for selling the power commander, not the tuning.

oh yah

Originally Posted by jagstyle

Ed, your position on the matter caught me by surprise as well. I thought you were a cool, down to earth guy that favored open ecus and sharing knowledge with fellow Subaru enthusiasts. I never expected you to join the bandwagon of the fearful and pro-DRM.

So what changed between when you were willing to tune on the old firmware, leaving the map unlocked, and now? I was able to save a copy of your first tune using open source tools. The map can be easily edited, copied, and handed out. Did your business suffer during this time? Were your maps stolen and given out to many potential customers? Did a significant number of customers learn how to tune themselves and not return for multiple tunes? What happened that was so severe and so threatening to your bottom line that you felt the need to lock the maps and refuse to give out any information?

There are so many variables besides the tune that are out of your control, I don't understand how liability all of a sudden becomes a concern in this case. A customer can change any number of things, neglect to mention it and blame the tuner when a failure occurs.

The accessibility of ATR over open source offerings increasing the probability of foul play is the only valid concern that I can think of. I still feel that the tuner community is overreacting to a perceived threat that really isn't worth worrying about.

Having a copy of a custom calibration does not provide the methods or experience required to safely and efficiently create that calibration on the fly. I won't be able to go out the morning after receiving an ATR map and properly tune someone else's completely different setup in two hours. Your business would not be in jeopardy if you gave me an ATR copy of my custom tune.

Originally Posted by I<3subie

And there is a whole bigger picture to that.

Oh and maybe we should turn them onto Cobb then?

DJ had to come out with a carb legal pcIII and pay a steep fine.

The local guys got busted in that too.
Call up eastbay motorsports and ask them to install a aftermarket exhaust and or tune it. Then listen to them explain that they cant do it because they got turned in and fined big money.

Do you know how many times I had to get the book out and show someone if I install that part on your street car/bike. And the bar finds out.. I'm going to get fined because its for race use only.
Then turn the guy away...



Dont know why this turned into flame someone thread. Maybe you guys should get more experance before hand. If someone tells you no.... Then they are the bad person and cant be right!

Originally Posted by Mr. Xevious

so all your experience comes from your motorcycles and the Ducatis right?

I have dealt with the BAR more then a few times as a performance shop and never had them have any issues with working on cars that are registered for the street as long as you are registered with the BAR.

maybe you should go back to working motorcycles?

or maybe we can just give you a few days away from the forums for being a jackass?

Originally Posted by Mr. Xevious

so all your experience comes from your motorcycles and the Ducatis right?

I have dealt with the BAR more then a few times as a performance shop and never had them have any issues with working on cars that are registered for the street as long as you are registered with the BAR.

maybe you should go back to working motorcycles?

or maybe we can just give you a few days away from the forums for being a jackass?

Originally Posted by I<3subie

B.T.W. Lets keep the personal attacks out of it. I have not once brought up anything about anyone of you guys.