President Bush's "Hook 'em, 'horns" salute got lost in translation in Norway, where shocked people interpreted his hand gesture during his inauguration as a salute to Satan.

That's what it means in the Nordics when you throw up the right hand with the index and pinky fingers raised, a gesture popular among heavy metal groups and their fans in the region.

"Shock greeting from Bush daughter," a headline in the Norwegian Internet newspaper Nettavisen said above a photograph of Bush's daughter Jenna, smiling and showing the sign.

Yep, I remember Beavis and Butthead doing that on MTV.

I think they need to replace that texas salute with the "we're # 1 salute" (middle finger).

He does that all the time...he says it's from the longhorns (Texas), but he didn't even go there. Who throws up the sign of a college they lived in the same state as but never went to?!?!?! Bush is a jack a$$. I don't see any Californians throwing up the Trojan V for victory everytime they get applause.

He does that all the time...he says it's from the longhorns (Texas), but he didn't even go there. Who throws up the sign of a college they lived in the same state as but never went to?!?!?! Bush is a jack a$$. I don't see any Californians throwing up the Trojan V for victory everytime they get applause.

Supposedly the college band was playing while they did the salute.

Supposedly the college band was playing while they did the salute.


Ok...then who has the college band of a college he didn't go to play at his inauguration?

What can I say, Bush is ******* metal.

Hahahahahaha

Since Satan is merely a fallen angel of God, praying to Him is a form of Christianity.

Kinda like those that worship the Virgin Mary.

Heheh when my cousin's came to my graduation they took pictures of the stadium doing the Hook'em Horns. They said in Spain it means up yours, they got a big kick out of it. :D

Since Satan is merely a fallen angel of God, praying to Him is a form of Christianity.

Kinda like those that worship the Virgin Mary.

You would be a great spinster.

Since Satan is merely a fallen angel of God, praying to Him is a form of Christianity.

Kinda like those that worship the Virgin Mary.


no, that would be more of a form of catholicism, not christianity

there is a difference

isn't Catholicism a form of Christianity?


There's a difference between Mormanism and Baptism too, but that doesn't mean they're not both Christian.

isn't Catholicism a form of Christianity?


There's a difference between Mormanism and Baptism too, but that doesn't mean they're not both Christian.


christians don't pray to saints, they pray only to God

there are a lot of differences between mormanism and baptists (its not baptism, baptism is an action)

baptist is a denomination of the protestant church.

mormonism is a cult and is far from being Christian.

Hmmm...I don't think The Jesus' mom, Mary, is a saint. Is she?
A lot of Catholics pray to her.
Does that make said worshipers not Christians?

mormonism is a cult and is far from being Christian.


But they say they are a church of Jesus Christ, so in that sense they are Christians

That "latter day saints" bit can get pretty strange though....

I asked my mormon friend once if Mormonism is a form of Christanity, his answer is yes. But if you ask people of other faiths Christian faiths (people that take their faith seriously, anyways) and they will most likely say no. Its a toss up to me.

But they say they are a church of Jesus Christ, so in that sense they are Christians

That "latter day saints" bit can get pretty strange though....

I saw a really good dateline special about fundamental mormanism in a city called colorado city arizona, They say that "the streets will run red with the blood of thier enemies". Meaning everyone who's not mormon. They also go and gather in the desert one day every year and wait for the messiah to come down in a spaceship, he hasn't come yet though. Sounds kinda familiar. Pretty interesting. Did any one else see this?
* Just for the record I don't know any mormons who think like this*

mormonism is a cult and is far from being Christian.

Lol! You people kill me! I love "Christians" that think they need others to validate their being a Christian. You either are or your not. Its like being a dad, is it just having a kid or is it more than that?

I saw a really good dateline special about fundamental mormanism in a city called colorado city arizona, They say that "the streets will run red with the blood of thier enemies". Meaning everyone who's not mormon. They also go and gather in the desert one day every year and wait for the messiah to come down in a spaceship, he hasn't come yet though. Sounds kinda familiar. Pretty interesting. Did any one else see this?
* Just for the record I don't know any mormons who think like this*

I watched the same dateline, there was nothing about a spaceship, I think your confusing them with another offshoot religion.

mormonism is a cult and is far from being Christian.


Look out we have another mormon expert!

Lol! You people kill me! I love "Christians" that think they need others to validate their being a Christian. You either are or your not. Its like being a dad, is it just having a kid or is it more than that?


Good point. But to me, if you recognize a singular god...you're not Jewish...and you're not Islamic...then you're a Christian. Catholics, Baptists, Protestants, Mormons, Russian Orthadox, Snake Handlers, Televangelists, Evangelicals, and every other kind there is are all Christian. If you yourself ARE a Christian, and don't recognize another form of Christianity as being Christian, then that's your problem. But the truth is they're all part of Christianity.

I watched the same dateline, there was nothing about a spaceship, I think your confusing them with another offshoot religion.

Maybe it wasn't a spaceship, but didn't they gather in a field to wait for something that never came?
Was it the same one with the lady who helped the teenage girls escape to save them from the paligamists?

In sign language it means B.S.
The first daughters are pretty hot

But they say they are a church of Jesus Christ, so in that sense they are Christians

That "latter day saints" bit can get pretty strange though....


In that same sense then would you consider Christian Science to be Christian just because it has the word in it?

Just because they have Jesus Christ in their names makes them Christians? that is funny.

In order for something to be christian you have to look at what they believe, not what they call themselves.
Mormons don't believe that Jesus Christ is God. That is the underlying thing that defines a Christian.

If you guys would like more details between Christianity and other religions that you believe to be so called "christian" let me know, i would be happy to distinguish them apart.

Look out we have another mormon expert!

expert, no. have i done a lot of research on it and talked for hours upon hours with various mormons? yes i have.

expert, no. have i done a lot of research on it and talked for hours upon hours with various mormons? yes i have.

Man, I thought I was a loser! :)

In that same sense then would you consider Christian Science to be Christian just because it has the word in it?

Just because they have Jesus Christ in their names makes them Christians? that is funny.

In order for something to be christian you have to look at what they believe, not what they call themselves.
Mormons don't believe that Jesus Christ is God. That is the underlying thing that defines a Christian.

If you guys would like more details between Christianity and other religions that you believe to be so called "christian" let me know, i would be happy to distinguish them apart.

OK, since you mentioned them how about Christ Scientists? are they Christians?

How about Catholics? are they Christians?

Are Pat Robertson and Jerry Fallwell Christians?

Was David Koresh a Christian?

Are these new self-proclaimed "Christian Zionists" really Christians?

How does W's lying about weapons of mass destruction, sending the US military in and killing ten's if not hundred's of thousands, (many of them total innocent) Iraqi's
fit in with the words of his "favorite philosopher"? -Who would Jesus Bomb?

How about "Positive" Christianity? (if you don't know what that is/was- look it up).

Your position reminds me of a mythology teacher I had in high school who started the semester by explaining that Christian mythology isn't mythology- its the truth, that makes it different than any other real mythology, which were just stories made up to explain things people didn't understand.

I think it has to go beyond anything they profess or say they believe in, or what sequence of chants they perform on Sunday, from my perspective it is more about how you treat other people, whether you practice the christian morals of respecting other people, reaching out to those less fortunate and practicing forgiveness says a lot more to me about a person's "christianity" than any of the rest of the crap.

I have no problems with the fundamental values that Christ was supposed to be suggesting people live by, so that makes me a fundamentalists eh? -but I think almost all organized religions- especially these so-called evangelical wing-nuts are pretty far off track- to the point I think a lot of them are professing some very un-christian principles.

But whatever, I just really think the little BS/devil/hook'em salute really should stay in the realm of the heavy metal crowd- it's one thing to see Ronnie James Dio do it while he's singing about Lucifer coming up and taking your soul, but from W- it's just.....it's very un-presidential- no matter what the excuse...

Oh and I didn't throw those out just to spite you I am curious to hear your take on some of these "mainstream" (OK, so some are obscure) "christian" movements

I'm an alumni of Indiana University.:D

http://gpatmac.us/SubaruPics/flipping_the_bird.jpghttp://gpatmac.us/SubaruPics/You.jpg

Dumbest controversy ever. Please dispatch a C-5A to Norway with a big fat clue.

Your position reminds me of a mythology teacher I had in high school who started the semester by explaining that Christian mythology isn't mythology- its the truth, that makes it different than any other real mythology, which were just stories made up to explain things people didn't understand.

I think it has to go beyond anything they profess or say they believe in, or what sequence of chants they perform on Sunday, from my perspective it is more about how you treat other people, whether you practice the christian morals of respecting other people, reaching out to those less fortunate and practicing forgiveness says a lot more to me about a person's "christianity" than any of the rest of the crap.

I have no problems with the fundamental values that Christ was supposed to be suggesting people live by, so that makes me a fundamentalists eh? -but I think almost all organized religions- especially these so-called evangelical wing-nuts are pretty far off track- to the point I think a lot of them are professing some very un-christian principles.


I do believe it is on what the individual believes. then how they act will reflect their beliefs. The point I was trying to make was to just look at what the people believe as a basis of how to distinguish what "category" you could say they fall under. calling someone a christian when they don't believe in what and who Christ said he was is wrong in my opinion. just like saying i am muslim yet don't believe in the Koran or any of their beliefs. just because i say i am muslim does that make me muslim?

no where have i said that certain people are going to hell because they don't believe a certain thing. It is just frustrating when people clasify certain people with a given belief when those people don't believe the same thing. thats all i was getting to.


But whatever, I just really think the little BS/devil/hook'em salute really should stay in the realm of the heavy metal crowd- it's one thing to see Ronnie James Dio do it while he's singing about Lucifer coming up and taking your soul, but from W- it's just.....it's very un-presidential- no matter what the excuse...

that i will agree with you on. I don't think it was an appropriate thing to do either.

OK, since you mentioned them how about Christ Scientists? are they Christians?

How about Catholics? are they Christians?

Are Pat Robertson and Jerry Fallwell Christians?

Was David Koresh a Christian?

Are these new self-proclaimed "Christian Zionists" really Christians?

How about "Positive" Christianity? (if you don't know what that is/was- look it up).

Oh and I didn't throw those out just to spite you I am curious to hear your take on some of these "mainstream" (OK, so some are obscure) "christian" movements

I will post more up on this tomorrow. I have to leave work right now and won;t get home till late tonight. I am not trying to dodge these questions. i will answer them tomorrow.

I'm kind of surprised by the lack of response from our religious zealots on the board...

Don't worry he'll be back soon. Pretty well written ish, I have a question for you though. Do you believe that if you don't go to church you are not following what God would want you to do?

OK, since you mentioned them how about Christ Scientists? are they Christians?

How about Catholics? are they Christians?

Are Pat Robertson and Jerry Fallwell Christians?

Was David Koresh a Christian?

Are these new self-proclaimed "Christian Zionists" really Christians?

How about "Positive" Christianity? (if you don't know what that is/was- look it up).



Christian Science:

Founded by Mary Baker Eddy in 1879. They claim to use the Bible as their source for teaching, but they also use a book called Science and Health with Keys to the Scriptures. and another called Miscellaneous Writings These books was written by Mary Baker Eddy to be used as a means to reveal the true meaning of the Bible. She believed that the New Testament alone contained 300,000 errors. (Science and Health, p.139) She also states that her writings are infallible (Science and Health, p.129, 345). Basically since the New Testament has roughly only 140,000 words in it. that means that every word has about 2 errors to it. basically you can only go off what she wrote in her book. Christian Science does not believe that Jesus actually died and physically rose from the dead. Jesus was not here to save man from death, but to teach man that death is just an illusion and not real. same goes with the concept of evil. it does not exist. In order to have immortal life all you need to do is deny the reality of evil and death.
If you want to know more let me know, but that covers some of the basics.

Catholics:

This is a sensitive subject. I personally believe that there are a lot of catholics out there that are Christians. but there are probably a lot out there as well that are not. In the general sense the beliefs are the same. the thing with the catholic church is that I have known a lot of catholics who growing up and going to mass every week of their lives, yet have no clue who Jesus truly is and what his purpose was on earth. They do believe he is the savior and virgin birth, he is God, etc. Where it seems they miss out is the whole personal relationship part. As i said before, I have known some Catholics who are definatly Christians, and I have known a lot of others who as Catholics, believed they weren't Christians, they were Catholic, they looked at them as two separate religions.

I will never say that a certain person will or will not go to heaven. that is not for me to judge, that is between God and that person.

Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell and David Koresh:

I added Koresh with these guys because they are all individuals and not groups.
I had to look up who pat robertson and jerry falwell were. david koresh was probably not a christian based on his actions. as i said before though i cannot answer where he ended up. As i was reading up on pat and jerry, i don't think its necessary to get into some of ther personal beliefs on certain issues. I found a quote on an anti-falwell page that seems to fit on if you are a Christian or not
A person simply cannot gain or lose his or her salvation based upon his/her view of the Bible. Salvation comes from faith in Christ, and in Christ alone.

Christian Zionists:

again another thing i had to look up becasue i am not familiar with this term. after doing a little reading, i would say most of them are christians. like that previous quote, its about what you believe and not how necessarily how you view certain issues. I will do more reading on it to get a better understanding behind what they are doing and why.


Positive Christianity:

i did have to look this up as well. seems to be pretty controversial in the application of Jesus' teachings. I did however find various things on it that suggests there are a few different types of "positive christianity". I was finding stuff from Hitler to Pat Robertson to doesn't matter what you are we can all live happily together in harmony. Pete, do you have any links that could direct me in a direction of what you were thinking is a good representation of what "positive christianity" is?

Don't worry he'll be back soon. Pretty well written ish, I have a question for you though. Do you believe that if you don't go to church you are not following what God would want you to do?

I do not believe that you have to go to church every sunday to be saved.

I do believe though that church has its place and is an important tool for one to grow closer to God. is it something that you can possibly skip and find similar benefits from elsewhere, yeah. This is under the assumption that by church you mean go on sunday morning to a place where many others gather and you sing songs and listen to a message from a pastor/priest/minister/teacher/preacher.

i don't think one should go to church just because they think it is what God expects him/her to do.

I think one should go to church becasue they want to learn more about who God is and how they can grow closer to God. Church is not the only place where that can take place.


Hope that answers your question

Bush rocks,...but I think religion is quite silly. Really, I mean come on…I believe faith is something you can have in another person. Like when you need someone to accomplish something, you can have faith that they will get the job done. But faith in a God. I don’t know about any of you, but I’ve never experienced first hand anything ever written in the bible. I mean, the stories are entertaining. But, putting your all out faith in something that doesn’t exist….that’s just lunacy. Religion is just another way man kind tries to separate himself from the rest of the animals on this planet, control the masses, and to explain the unexplained,…that is until science catches up and we figure the stuff out on our own. Ooooh,…fire…aahhhhhh!

Very similar to my thoughts.

... control the masses...

It's worked pretty good so far. Can you Imagine how society would be about it, almost every culture on the planet has a form of it.

Maybe it wasn't a spaceship, but didn't they gather in a field to wait for something that never came?
Was it the same one with the lady who helped the teenage girls escape to save them from the paligamists?


Yep thats the one, I seriously think your confusing them with the Branch Davidians. Early on they were waiting for the second coming in the desert I believe. They are an offshoot of the Seventh Day Adventists I believe. The expose hinted at a government raid so I can see the Waco similarities with them and the Branch Davidians.

It's worked pretty good so far. Can you Imagine how society would be about it, almost every culture on the planet has a form of it.


Religion is just another way man kind tries to...control the masses

You may argue the semantics of 'control' since it does tend to have a bit of a negative connotation, but religion IS a set of guidelines where someone (society, the clergy, the state) urges the masses to abide those guidelines, or else.

expert, no. have i done a lot of research on it and talked for hours upon hours with various mormons? yes i have.

I think one of the hardest things to do as believers in a certain faith is to recognize that we truly do not know as much as we like to think we do about other religions. Certainly not enough to do them any justice. It is difficult for us to look at the other religion objectively, this seems to be most true in regards to the Mormon religion.

Religion is just another way man kind tries to separate himself from the rest of the animals on this planet, control the masses, and to explain the unexplained,…that is until science catches up and we figure the stuff out on our own. Ooooh,…fire…aahhhhhh!

Which famous scientist was it that said "I don't dispute that God exists, I just want to know how he did it."? I think using science as a way to prove that God does not exist is a fruitless endeavor. If you are a Christian and you believe that God is the originator of all things including science then it would be safe to assume that he used science to create our universe. Who is to say the "big bang" wasn't a tool God used? Blowing things up to create stuff?! Thats genius! I don't know about you but I enjoy blowing stuff up just for fun!

So much symantics about the names of religions. Again, if you worship one guy called God, you aren't Islamic, and you're not Jewish...you are Christian. Again, if someone else fits those guidlines but you don't like their way of worship, too bad they're Christian too. Stop trying to define 'Christianity' by what YOU think Christians should be/believe in/do.

Science is not exlusive of religion. And very very few scientists try to disprove that a or any god(s) exist. However, there are several examples of where science says that something in the bible didn't happen. Despite this, many scientists are religious. How can this be? Because smart people realize that the bible is, at most, a set of examples and metaphores to explain how to live a good life with respects to other people. There is always the chance that a god has created science as a way to quell our insatiable desire to explain everything we experience. My opinion, however, is that of Chrisnonstop and gpatmac:

"I believe faith is something you can have in another person. Like when you need someone to accomplish something, you can have faith that they will get the job done. But faith in a God. I don’t know about any of you, but I’ve never experienced first hand anything ever written in the bible. I mean, the stories are entertaining. But, putting your all out faith in something that doesn’t exist….that’s just lunacy. Religion is just another way man kind tries to separate himself from the rest of the animals on this planet, control the masses, and to explain the unexplained,…that is until science catches up and we figure the stuff out on our own."_Chrisnonstop

I like that quote. Too bad it started off with praise for the worst president in the history of the country...hahahaha

Again, if you worship one guy called God, you aren't Islamic, and you're not Jewish...you are Christian. Again, if someone else fits those guidlines but you don't like their way of worship, too bad they're Christian too. Stop trying to define 'Christianity' by what YOU think Christians should be/believe in/do.



Will you please explain to me the logic behind your thought of how you are automatically christian if you are not jewish or muslim.

if mormons, jehova witness, etc is included as being "christian" then please don't think of me as being christian as i do not share any of their befiefs

What threatens you so much about people thinking that Mormons are Christians? Or Jehovas witness's for that matter?

What threatens you so much about people thinking that Mormons are Christians? Or Jehovas witness's for that matter?

its not that its threatening, its more in hopes that others will realize they are so different and that people people don't take the time to recogonize how far apart from each other they are.
it is an entirely different system of beliefs.

just because they look up to a single god, does not mean it is the same god.

If there is only one god to look up to who else would they be looking to? I'm sure that the interpertation and application of the bibles teachings are different but I would not go so far as to say that they worship a different god, they just see God differently.

If there is only one god to look up to who else would they be looking to? I'm sure that the interpertation and application of the bibles teachings are different but I would not go so far as to say that they worship a different god, they just see God differently.

in that sense how is it different from the jewish god, or islamic god?

they all believe in one god. so they must be looking at the same god as christians right?

but that can't be right as all those various religions conflict with each other on what/who god is.

in that sense how is it different from the jewish god, or islamic god?

they all believe in one god. so they must be looking at the same god as christians right?

but that can't be right as all those various religions conflict with each other on what/who god is.



EXACTLY!!! They all DO worship the same god. Jews made monotheism. Then Christians said, no you're doing it wrong, this is the right way to worship god. Then Muslims did the same thing. You can make divisions all over...there are a lot of types of Jews, lots of types of Christians, and lots of types of Muslims. But those are the three major catagories of monotheism. Take a god damn religion class...Mormons and Jehovah's Witnessess ARE CHRISTIANS!!!!! If you don't like that, because they think so much differently than your type of Christianity, that's TOO DAMN BAD! They're still Christians.

if mormons, jehova witness, etc is included as being "christian" then please don't think of me as being christian as i do not share any of their befiefs


This is the mindset that is blinding you to the logic I have already laid out very clearly. I'm sorry that you hate Mormon's and Jehova's Witnessess so bad...and I understand that your beliefs are very different than their's. But Orthodox Jews and most modern Jews have very different beliefs also. And they are all considered Jewish. Just like you, all the Mormons, and all the Jehovah's Witnessess are CHRISTIANS!


(Now do you see the logic)

in that sense how is it different from the jewish god, or islamic god?

they all believe in one god. so they must be looking at the same god as christians right?

but that can't be right as all those various religions conflict with each other on what/who god is.


You got it twisted, its not that the God is different its just how we see and worship that God that is different. Its a in the eye of the beholder type of thing. Some people see a commuter car, we see a sports car but its still the same car.

EXACTLY!!! They all DO worship the same god. Jews made monotheism. Then Christians said, no you're doing it wrong, this is the right way to worship god. Then Muslims did the same thing. You can make divisions all over...there are a lot of types of Jews, lots of types of Christians, and lots of types of Muslims. But those are the three major catagories of monotheism. Take a god damn religion class...Mormons and Jehovah's Witnessess ARE CHRISTIANS!!!!! If you don't like that, because they think so much differently than your type of Christianity, that's TOO DAMN BAD! They're still Christians.


wow, you guys don't need to yell at me.

i have taken religion classes, tia.

your logic of saying its all the same god isn't making sense. lets take Judiasm, Islam, and Christianity. (leave mormons and jehova witness out for now). you say they all worship they same god, just in different ways right? Christianity is based upon Jesus Christ. The fact that Jesus Christ was God in human form. all throughout the new testament multiple references to Jesus claiming to be God. This is why the Jews crucified him.

How can the Jewish god and the Muslim god be the same god as the christian one? They both deny who Jesus said he was. Christians say Jesus is god, jews don't, muslims don't. how does that make the christian god the same as the others? sound like two different god's to me.

They all are monotheistic, believe in one God, they just dont believe it to be the same God. its not that its all the same and they are just different views of God.

This is the mindset that is blinding you to the logic I have already laid out very clearly. I'm sorry that you hate Mormon's and Jehova's Witnessess so bad...and I understand that your beliefs are very different than their's. But Orthodox Jews and most modern Jews have very different beliefs also. And they are all considered Jewish. Just like you, all the Mormons, and all the Jehovah's Witnessess are CHRISTIANS!


(Now do you see the logic)


who ever said I hate mormons? thanks for putting words in my mouth. I am just trying to point out that there is a difference and they are separate religions/beliefs.

jehova witnesses aren't even monotheistic. one example:
John 1:1 "in the beginning was the word and the word was with god and the word was a god." [New World Translation]

they believe jesus was a god different from god the father and actually the brother of the archangel michael.

Every other version out there of the bible states "...the word was god."

(if you didn't know, the new world translation is the only translation that the jehova witnesses accept as being true and all protestant/catholic/other christian groups accept all but that translation)


i am not being blinded to your logic. you are just trying to fit everything into 3 categories, jew, muslim, or christian without realizing that there are more out there than just the three.

i suggest reading up on these various groups some before you lump them all together as being the same

Ish, I didn't mean to 'yell'. Don't want to offend anyone with this discussion. But here's what I'm saying:

Jews read the old testament. Christians read the old testament and the new testament. Muslims read (rarely) the old testament, (rarely) the new testatment, and mostly the 'final testament' (the Koran). They all do worship the same god. They differ on who they think the messiah is. Jesus was Jewish. He said he was the son of the Jewish God. Which makes the Christian god and the Jewish god the same guy. Mohammed said very similar things. Each is just a rendition of how to worship this one god in the correct way. Just like each sect of Christianity claims that their own way to worship god is correct. If you look at the history of monotheism from an objective, non-religious perspective it is obvious that all three major divisions, and all of each of their subdivisions, worship the same god. There are nearly infinate ways in which to worship said god, and many of the religions claim that all the other ones are plain and simply wrong. That is why it's hard for a Baptist, for example, to see that an extreamist-Muslim is trying to worship the same god. Because they have such different views on what that god wants, they can't see that the roots are the same.
As an example, look at a family tree. My great grandfather and my third cousin's great grandfather are the same guy. My third cousin and I have never met, and I'll bet we're extreamly different people. But we still are on the same family tree. Just like the three religions in discussion (and all of their subdivisions) are in the same 'religious family tree'. And to get back to the original discussion, Mormons, Baptists, Catholics, and Jehovah's Witnessess are closer together on this family tree, and the branch they all have in common is reffered to as Christianity.