****ing insurgents, terrorists and Saddam loyalists :mad:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2026&e=4&u=/latimests/uneaseshadowsbushsoptimism

WASHINGTON — A combination of escalating bloodshed, gloomy assessments and deteriorating security conditions in Iraq (news - web sites) are challenging the Bush administration's upbeat view of the struggle to establish democracy in the beleaguered Middle East nation.

A growing sense of unease is visible among Republicans as well as Democrats in Congress as bombings and kidnappings continue to rise along with the death toll.

The new challenge to the administration's view of events comes at a crucial time for President Bush (news - web sites), as the interim Iraqi government struggles to prepare for elections in January and as the Iraq issue dominates his bid for reelection.

What did you expect?

What did you expect?

You're telling me that you expected the recent major spike in opposition? Can I borrow you the next time I go to Vegas?

...I think a lot of people expected this conflict to go the way of Vietnam (long, drawn out fighting with guerilla style fighting from a hard-to-target enemy)...and this 'recent spike in opposition' fits in with that expectation perfectly...

You're telling me that you expected the recent major spike in opposition? Can I borrow you the next time I go to Vegas?

I'm useless at Vegas, but I've been saying all along that as long as we are an occupying force there we can expect the "insurgency" to keep growing.

W said it himself not too long ago;

"....they don't like being occupied, heck I wouldn't like being occupied....."

Put yourself in the position of an Iraqi your age, do you honestly think you would be signing up for the police force while its being run by the occupying army, and their puppet governing council?

I really doubt it, I'd bet that if your country was being treated by a foreign military in the manner we're treating Iraq, you'd be an insurgent yourself.

...I think a lot of people expected this conflict to go the way of Vietnam (long, drawn out fighting with guerilla style fighting from a hard-to-target enemy)...and this 'recent spike in opposition' fits in with that expectation perfectly...

To compare Vietnam with OIF is pretty weak if you ask me. The death tolls between the wars are the difference between night and day based on military technology, doctrine and whereabouts of known opposition in certain cities. 30% of the deaths in OIF are contributed to human error on our part.

The NVA was a worthy adversary that lurked in the shadows and wasn't limited to a city border. They ranged from 10-60yr old men and younger women and children with green tracer fire. In Iraq, all you have to do is stay out of the Fallujah, Basara, Sadr and stay clear of suspect vehicles by priority targets.

It's pretty sad it's come to this...

"....they don't like being occupied, heck I wouldn't like being occupied....."

Put yourself in the position of an Iraqi your age, do you honestly think you would be signing up for the police force while its being run by the occupying army, and their puppet governing council?

I really doubt it, I'd bet that if your country was being treated by a foreign military in the manner we're treating Iraq, you'd be an insurgent yourself.

How have/are we treating Iraq poorly?

I agree with you though...

I understand that I’d probably be upset but I wouldn't grab my rifle this soon in the game and that's what I have a hard time understanding. 1 year after OIF begun is pretty damn quick to start jumping the gun when a promising liberation is unfolding.

...here's something to think about. According to some sources (I know, could be propaganda, but all the news from Iraq could be) a lot of Iraqis that did NOT like Saddam as a leader also did NOT want the US to 'liberate' the country. I can picture that easily; don't want the leader, but also want to take care of themselves because of nationalistic/pride reasons. I'm sure they wouldn't have minded some help...but we didn't even try to help, we just assumed what they wanted and took over. So now we've got all the troops trying to liberate a country, but they don't know who they're liberating the country from and who they're liberating the country to. That sucks for the US troops (real bad), sucks for the Iraqi people who didn't like Saddam, sucks for the Iraqi people who did like Saddam (but it should suck for them)...just sucks all together.

"What a senseless waste of human life"


...don't know if I totally trust this source...but Ramadi isn't any of the places you mentioned I don't think...
http://talkleft.com/new_archives/003098.html

a lot of Iraqis that did NOT like Saddam as a leader also did NOT want the US to 'liberate' the country. I can picture that easily; don't want the leader, but also want to take care of themselves because of nationalistic/pride reasons.

I understand the issues regarding national pride but can also remember countless pictures and footage of Iraqi citizens of all ages kissing and hugging Marines as they brought down Saddam's statue in Baghdad, praising Soldiers as they rolled into cities borders en route to Baghdad and Iraqis thanking the USA when the 4th ID captured Saddam himself.

A majority of Iraqi people still feel this way even though they're a little upset about the ongoing occupation. The bottom line is based on the fact these insurgents are ruining it for the rest of them (hence civil war)... The minority opposition doesn't want Westerners in Arab country and the few Saddam loyalists are pissed they lost what Saddam provided.

It’s just that simple… we know where the opposition is coming from--we just don’t know what they have up their sleeve in attempt to disrupt plans for those with hope.

True...I have a question about this whole conflict though...are we training friendly-Iraqi's at all right now? So when we leave we know it won't just go back to a Saddam-like state again? The people I've seen thanking us look peaceful...the ones who don't like us look militant...

True...I have a question about this whole conflict though...are we training friendly-Iraqi's at all right now?

Military and LE wise, YES.

We have been for a long time with good results.

I actually have a couple drill sergeant friends that volunteered to be the first to train Iraqi soldiers over 8 months ago to establish a strong NCO backbone. I've also had a buddy recently come back from training Iraqis from 5th Special Forces Group.

I'm telling you, man... things have otherwise been going smoothly in Iraq. The USA has done a TON to help Iraq from training to education. It's the damn minority that's stirring the hornets nest for everyone else that's hopeful for liberation.

Thanks for the info...but just to be a pain in the ass I'll suggest this...if we've trained some friendly Iraqi's, and have been for a while, then we should start turning over the war to them...as in have a planned time when we're gonna ship out, and scale down the size of our presence there until we're gone. Have the US-Trained Iraqis start training more Iraqis during the phase out so by the time we're out of the country they can handle the small minority of people who are resisting the liberation. I don't see any real downside to that...they get the US expertise and we can start bringing home our troops who stand to get killed over there. AND the Iraqis will build some national pride from it, which can only help whatever administration takes over the politics of the country next.

You're telling me that you expected the recent major spike in opposition? Can I borrow you the next time I go to Vegas?

Last time I checked, you could not place a wager on the side of the house. The house always wins, it's a no brainer. You invade a country and kill people, the relatives and loved ones of those you kill are going to fight back. I would.

You actually didn't expect this?! You got to be kidding me. Sorry to inform you but this isn't a spike its a gradual increase. Its been known around the world that Iraq has never been doing well. Of course Bush says oh we are doing fine. Total bull****. And this just isn't outside news sources that have been saying this. Our own soldiers have been. Of course, alot of people fail to take note that the Armed forces don't like showing they are failing. And this is a fact. I would love for anyone to dispute that. The armed force culture shows this. By the way OPTRUTH.org, non-partison, its from soldiers that just got back from Iraq etc. One of those soldiers was on NOW some pbs show. He talked about how his mom a art teacher in high school. Had to buy him a bullet proof vest, since the one they gave him was from vietnam era. It cost his mom 600 odd dollars. He also stated that price varied from 500 to 2000 dollars in what others had bought. Also he said that the contractors, got paid four times what he did. (He stated he made around 20g a year.) And that he as a soldier resented it, and he wasn't alone. (The contractors seemed to brag about how much they made.) Since he put his life on the line everyday and the governement paid a guy that could leave anytime a bunch of money that was tax free. He also stated, that Iraq has been getting worse since Bush said we had won. He stated, that in his 16th month tour of duty, he saw things get worse and worse and more organized. So basically this is the tip of the ice berg. Also something that suprised me; his translator stated that even though he knew why the americans where there he still felt that they where occupying his country. And this guy, isn't a "stupid insurgents, terrorists and Saddam loyalists," he is a educated individual that got put in jail by Saddam for telling his students not to vote for him. (Or something along those lines.) I strongly suggest you check out OPTRUTH.org.

Sadly, Bush failed the country horribly. I don't see how anyone could still vote for him.

Interesting view from the front lines...

http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/002544.php

Of course I considered the idea from the beginning. But this story is based on the recent unconventional opposition in the form of car bombs etc. Other than these occasional blast near friendly individuals, everything else in Iraq seems to be running somewhat smoothly on a daily life basis for its citizens. Even though they may not agree with the daily patrols and occupation from our troops they’re still carrying on with life and biting their tongues until everything calms down (no thanks to this recent opposition). There's NO WAY you could predict the recent climb in unconventional war tactics... You may have thought about it like myself but...

Salty, im sorry but your wrong things are not going as planned in Iraq. Do you know that Arbic woman that reports for CNN and 60 mins? I can't remember her name right off hand. Amerosa? She has stated that their has been a gradual increase in attacks since a year. And that things have gotten worse over time. Also that link you gave us is very partison. Come-on what do you expect a Republican news source to state. (Hint the ads just scream republican.) www.optruth.org is NOT partison. Please read what a lot of those guys have to say, it might suprise you. By the way the "Green" zone is starting to get under attack. That is a very bad sign. Americans are getting a very screwed up view of Iraq. Every where else in the world people are told how bad it is getting. And we are the only ones not to hear it. My dad listens to spanish radio and we talk about the stuff the international news is saying. And they have been saying for quiet a bit now that things are not going well. So yes I could predict that things where going to get worse and worse.

Exit Strategy (http://www.uselessmoviequotes.com/files/nukehick.wav)

Exit Strategy (http://www.uselessmoviequotes.com/files/nukehick.wav)

Shoulda been the entrance strategy.

Salty, im sorry but your wrong things are not going as planned in Iraq. Do you know that Arbic woman that reports for CNN and 60 mins? I can't remember her name right off hand. Amerosa? She has stated that their has been a gradual increase in attacks since a year. And that things have gotten worse over time. Also that link you gave us is very partison. Come-on what do you expect a Republican news source to state.

Well whatever, brother...

Don't talk to me about partisan sources when you're trying to spit information from a woman from 60minutes! The very same news branch that's currently under fire for forging Bush documents!

Umm, she is well known in the journalism world as a very upfront woman. And she doesn't just work for 60mins. She also works for CNN. I mentioned her becauseshe was in Iraq and talked about it on some show. And how us as americans are not getting the full story from Iraq. Also you fail to discredit the reports from the soldiers on www.optruth.org which is not partison. Sorry but your fooling yourself brother if you think Iraq is going well and as planned. Well do we have a plan? So instead of side stepping what i said, atleast come up with a better rebuttle than OMG the well respected journalist works for CBS. (I think thats the station.) And fail to mention how well known and respected she is.

You actually didn't expect this?! You got to be kidding me. Sorry to inform you but this isn't a spike its a gradual increase. Its been known around the world that Iraq has never been doing well.

If Iraq isn't going well, how on earth do you explain the historically ridiculously low casualty rates for US soldiers? If you think that's ridiculous, then name one other operation in history of this size (occupying a country of millions for a period of three years) that racked up fewer casualties. I think even the "bloodless revolution" in ye Olde England had more casualties than the Iraq war has.

No, the politics are not always predictable and there still is danger in Iraq, but to start comparing this to vietnam or to say that "everyone knows this is going haywire!" when it's pretty darn under control, relatively speaking, is pure hype. The rest of the world that supposedly knows this is Europe, and if they were smart they'd compare the casualty counts in Iraq to the casualty counts they endured as colonial powers. You can do it for them, and then get back to us on just how well or not this is going.

When did I ever compare this to Vietnam? Sorry but things are not going well. Supposedly the war in Iraq ended about a year ago yet we have over 1000 people dead since then. Second tons of our men have been injured and many more Iraqies have been killed. I think its over 14,000. (I could be wrong on that one.) What I stated and you fail to note is what im saying. Iraq IS getting worse and will get worse. This is the tip of the ice berg. And contary to your beliefs its not just the European nations saying this. Its the rest of the world. And our soldiers... www.optruth.org. So I still fail to see how you can say the war on Iraq is going well. Since its been over we have lost over 1000 and have killed thousands of them. Not the type of image we want to portray as the "saviors" of the Iraqie people. Also you do realise we will have to be there for a lot of years to come if we plan to actually build the country back up. (Well we do want that oil after all.) So imagine how many men we will have lost and how many of them we will have killed. See a cycle yet? Like I stated before and will state again things will get worse and are getting worse and have been getting worse gradually.

When did I ever compare this to Vietnam?

Did I accuse you of comparing this to Vietnam? I don't think I did. Were you responding to someone else?

Anyway, you didn't really answer the questions I posed to you. You just repeated what you said in the first post, which is fine if you think it's really important, but again, I'd like to see what other operation in history over this amount of time and of this scale has done better. As to whether or not things are absolutely going to get worse, I don't see how you can be certain of that. It could be that once the Iraqi police and military get on their feet, they crush the mostly foreign terrorists right out of existence and "pacify" the warring religious minorities. Is that really less plausible than the doomsday you're predicting?

You stated, "but to start comparing this to vietnam." And since your message was dirrected at me I thought I would state that I never compared the two.

Also you didn't, either understand what I wrote or get what I was saying at all. Things are progressingly getting worse and our soldiers are stating as much. Again read www.optruth.org. The best information is right from the horses mouth right?

Second, tell me of a war that after it has ended has caused one thousand and more deaths of our troops and has caused thousands of Iraqi citiznes deaths? You can't really compare Iraq to other wars since according to the adminstration its done.

Third, it is getting worse. All around the world and from our soldiers we are told as much. Unless your there and in person, I think I will trust the soldiers that have been stuck there far longer than they where supposed to. And guess what a lot of them are saying that it is getting worse. Several of my friends just got back from Iraq. And have told me as much. Also these aren't your "weekend" force, one is in special ops group, and others have been in the army for over 6 years now. So I think I'll trust them more than a news that hasn't shown any footage from Iraq in months. Or has a news anchor there. (Last time I talk about my friends in the force since thats personal.) So hence thats why Im pretty certain it will be getting worse and this is just the start. Oh and troop moral is low.

Also you didn't, either understand what I wrote or get what I was saying at all. Things are progressingly getting worse and our soldiers are stating as much. Again read www.optruth.org. The best information is right from the horses mouth right?...

Second, tell me of a war that after it has ended has caused one thousand and more deaths of our troops and has caused thousands of Iraqi citiznes deaths? You can't really compare Iraq to other wars since according to the adminstration its done.....

Third, it is getting worse....

Well, first off, I was mentioning vietnam there as an example of the kind of comparison. So, no, you didn't bring it up but..."haywire" was aimed at you.

Second, I understood quite well what you were saying. Things are getting worse and will continue to get worse. And, you apparently did not read what I posted: Why is it impossible or even unlikely that things will get better once the Iraqi police and military reconstruction is complete?

Third: The horse example is funny, and appropriate. Usually, the horse's mouth is the last place you go for information. Especially with horses, since they don't talk. If you want to know how long it's been ridden, how far it will go, and how much it has had to eat...you ask the rider. So, first hand accounts from people at the bottom of the food chain are great, but guess what? The man on top usually has a much better big picture of the situation, and that's what matters to us in this discussion.

Fourth: I can easily compare Iraq to other wars. I just did. Does it matter what the administration officially labels it? Now, if you can't come up with an example of something like this happening with fewer casualties, I understand...the reason I asked the question is because I knew there was no good answer. Considering what's been achieved so far by the US military, the Iraq war is incredible in terms of casualties. It most definitely could have been a lot worse, but it isn't because our military is so competent.

As for the future, I see no reason to believe that incompetence is going to prevail in army that literally wiped out the largest army in the arab world within a few weeks. Time and support from us will be enough to get done what needs doing in Iraq.

Time and support from us will be enough to get done what needs doing in Iraq.

Unfortunately this is a major problem with most Americans.

We live in a place where things get done relatively quickly. We get our food through a drive through and throw together mini malls within few weeks of breaking ground. This does have its repercussions on our American & Iraqi citizens in my honest opinion...

Everyone's so quick to point the finger regarding an insignificant 1,000 deaths (accidental deaths exceeded those in combat at times and rest at a ~30% average today) from an occupying force that's rotated ~300,000+ soldiers. The list goes on and on about everyone being so impatient that some of the Iraqis are following suit with the impatient Americans because they thought a liberation would happen in the expeditious manner America's know for doing things.

There's no chance in hell you knew there was going to be a suicide car blast at Iraqi checkpoint today! It's this lack of support from everyone that brings chances lower and lower for us...

EDIT: The Iraqi people want to eat their cake too... They are tired of the recent violence we haven't initiated but don't want us to leave until things calm down. It's a catch-22 of Iraqi bull****.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2026&e=20&u=/latimests/iraqiswanttheustoleavebutnotjustyet


"Where is the freedom they promised?" he asks. "All the bloodshed, the sabotage, the killings. Who is paying the price? We, the Iraqi civilians."


But asked whether U.S. forces should pull out immediately, he responds: Absolutely not.


"There will be genocide here if they leave right now," Ramah answers. "They destroyed this country, and it is their responsibility to make it stand again…. Iraq is like a sick old woman who needs America to treat her right now."

How in the **** are we supposed to do this when some of these impatient Iraqi monkeys are giving us a strong guerilla opposition?!