hello there, as you may know, i am a "newbi" here and ofcourse with loads of questions. by the way .. hi to all

The reasoning of my post is because as some of you may know mazda has once again lied to the world. The all new RX-8 does not have 247 hp as advertised, infact according to some owners with dyno tests, it doesn't even have 200 hp to the wheels, with this said, mazda has offered to buy back the car. I have one and i am thinking on returning it and purchising an STI instead. I am also considering a G35 and even a V6 coupe accord with money left over to do serious engine work.
What is your stake with the sti? is it true also that it really does not have 300 hp? would you say is worth the trade?
Thanks for your imputs

go for a test drive, u'll be thrilled

faster than the rx8 for sure

I think your getting a little confused about "Crank" hp and "Wheel" hp. The car manufactures, and this holds true for almost all, measure the horspower of their engine at the crank. They also don't have the alternater, power steering, or A/C connected to the engine, this means that when it is actualy put into a car those suck up a lot of power, and then even more power is lost to the transmision (having to overcome the friction involved) so when you compare the claimed Hp to the wheel Hp you have to take all that into account. Also you have to understand what conditions the car is being dyno'd in, what is the ambient pressure, whats the ambient temp, how long has the engine been running, is the intercooler and or radiator hot or cold, what fuel is it running on. All that and a sh!t load more will all effect the measured wheel Hp. The only time I've heard of an engine making more than the claimed Hp was on the Dodge Neon SRT-4, Dodge got the claimed Hp delibritly when the engine was running it's worst, ie. hot intercooler, hot engine, yada yada. Now personaly I have to give props to Dodge for that, if more manufacturers put the claimed horse power at what the car would do in the worst condition I would be one happy puppy.
As for the STi, the engine really does have that Hp when tested as the manufactures do it. real world though, it varies on what type of dyno you like, some say 270 @ wheels, some say 220, either way though the All wheel drive and limited slips suck up a lot of power, thats why people get underdriven pullies and sliprier transmision fluid and engine oil.

Originally posted by cann
go for a test drive, u'll be thrilled

faster than the rx8 for sure


the ones i have seen in the dealers, don't let me do a test drive.. too bad coz i won't buy it from them. I saying is if u let me drive it and i like it, i buy it. Did that thing of buying before drive wiht the rx-8. never again

Originally posted by Snowy
I think your getting a little confused about "Crank" hp and "Wheel" hp. The car manufactures, and this holds true for almost all, measure the horspower of their engine at the crank. They also don't have the alternater, power steering, or A/C connected to the engine, this means that when it is actualy put into a car those suck up a lot of power, and then even more power is lost to the transmision (having to overcome the friction involved) so when you compare the claimed Hp to the wheel Hp you have to take all that into account. Also you have to understand what conditions the car is being dyno'd in, what is the ambient pressure, whats the ambient temp, how long has the engine been running, is the intercooler and or radiator hot or cold, what fuel is it running on. All that and a sh!t load more will all effect the measured wheel Hp. The only time I've heard of an engine making more than the claimed Hp was on the Dodge Neon SRT-4, Dodge got the claimed Hp delibritly when the engine was running it's worst, ie. hot intercooler, hot engine, yada yada. Now personaly I have to give props to Dodge for that, if more manufacturers put the claimed horse power at what the car would do in the worst condition I would be one happy puppy.
As for the STi, the engine really does have that Hp when tested as the manufactures do it. real world though, it varies on what type of dyno you like, some say 270 @ wheels, some say 220, either way though the All wheel drive and limited slips suck up a lot of power, thats why people get underdriven pullies and sliprier transmision fluid and engine oil.



yeah well thanks, with this all power dilema on the mazda, i can diferentiate from crank and wheel hps. also with the diferent "sets" on the car for a Dyno. But when you get ALL of the Dynos done BELOW 200 hp, it really says something. from all over, even Japan! and europe is worse!

Well after my long ass explanation I did a little research so I can tell my A$$ from a cold air intake. You're totaly right, the RX-8 does have less power than claimed, Mazda realesed a statement that the reason was that there was a last minute change to the ECU to comply with emissions, and the ads never got updated. The performance data is still accurate though because that was tested with the slower of the two. They have done a noble (smart so they don't get sued) thing about it though. they have initiated a buy back program that sounds fair, and for those that will keep the car, they give you free tune-ups for the 4 year waranty, plus $500. I personaly would keep it and use that free money to give her an upgraded exhaust or something, that would bring her up to the claimed power :p. How awsome would that be if more companies gave you money to supe up your car! But if you're not satisfied with it right now, chances are you won't be untill you've spent way more money than you should, so if thats the case call up mazda right now tell them you want your money back, bring it to the dealer that same day, get the cash, then with a big smile ask for a lift to the nearest Suby dealer :p and make sure you're wearing padded shorts for when the kick you out.

Originally posted by Snowy
Well after my long ass explanation I did a little research so I can tell my A$$ from a cold air intake. You're totaly right, the RX-8 does have less power than claimed, Mazda realesed a statement that the reason was that there was a last minute change to the ECU to comply with emissions, and the ads never got updated. The performance data is still accurate though because that was tested with the slower of the two. They have done a noble (smart so they don't get sued) thing about it though. they have initiated a buy back program that sounds fair, and for those that will keep the car, they give you free tune-ups for the 4 year waranty, plus $500. I personaly would keep it and use that free money to give her an upgraded exhaust or something, that would bring her up to the claimed power :p. How awsome would that be if more companies gave you money to supe up your car! But if you're not satisfied with it right now, chances are you won't be untill you've spent way more money than you should, so if thats the case call up mazda right now tell them you want your money back, bring it to the dealer that same day, get the cash, then with a big smile ask for a lift to the nearest Suby dealer :p and make sure you're wearing padded shorts for when the kick you out.

Is not an ECU issue, there is no emissions in japan and some parts of europe. Besides $500 will take you now where in performance upgrade, even if it does, just think you could have had initial power spend that moeny to get even MORE power instead of saturating the changes posibilities.
Mazda never updated the ads, nor they will, they have said so, nor they will release the reasoning why the car has "238" instead of the 250 as they they the study "after" so many people complained due to Dyno tests. trsu me you don't want to argue about this subject with me. i have a month or more of intense research and discation with other rx-8 fellows.
But whats with this communitiy, it doesn't seem so lighten up.. or am i in the wrong forum for the sti cars?

Ok... here is where I got the info I used to make my post http://www.motortrend.com/features/news/112_news41/index.html

What are you really asking then? What car would we chose to buy? I'm pretty sure that in an impreza forum were all going to say get the STi. $500 will get you somewhere, just not very far. If you use it right it will easily get you that 12hp to make up the diffrence. But it doesn't seem like you like the RX-8 all that much so go trade it in.

Damn I wish I woulda bought the rx-8 when it came out. Then I would've gotten to stomp on a car for free for a month and go out and buy a new car. If only I had known.

Definitely do not take the 4 years free service and $500, with the way factory recommended service goes you would get a free oil change like every 10k miles so its not worth it. If you really like the car tho I would sell the car back to them and show up the next day to purchase the car used for a couple of grand less:D

Neways the STi is a great performance car, it may be a bit loud and crude compared to other more luxurious rides out there, but if all the care about is performance than this is the car for you.

$500 will get u 3-10 hp and will VOID the warranty.. lol..
Go for STi, its a BEAST, especially compared to RX-8 and S2000.. Its a faster ans safer car... (awd)..
Want luxury? Get 04 tl or G35 coupe...
Want race around the clock and get a bad back? Get Evo?
Want a super sports car with bawls with some luxury and more or less decent ride - get STi...
STi test drives are available EVERYWHERE, I been able to test drive it from 2 local dealers.. And oh ye, STi is available at around INVOICE price now-a-days.. That is right, INVOICE, and not MSRP.. U can prolly grab one for $29,500+tax...
Check NASIOC forums - everyone everywhere but CA been able to snap them cheap last few weeks.. $500 dealer holdback in effect now..
good luck..

Originally posted by amdmaxx
$500 will get u 3-10 hp and will VOID the warranty.. lol..
Go for STi, its a BEAST, especially compared to RX-8 and S2000.. Its a faster ans safer car... (awd)..
Want luxury? Get 04 tl or G35 coupe...
Want race around the clock and get a bad back? Get Evo?
Want a super sports car with bawls with some luxury and more or less decent ride - get STi...
STi test drives are available EVERYWHERE, I been able to test drive it from 2 local dealers.. And oh ye, STi is available at around INVOICE price now-a-days.. That is right, INVOICE, and not MSRP.. U can prolly grab one for $29,500+tax...
Check NASIOC forums - everyone everywhere but CA been able to snap them cheap last few weeks.. $500 dealer holdback in effect now..
good luck..

good info, thanks i will check it the site

any time.. keep us in the loop..

Where are you located. Maybe some one with an STI may take you for a ride or let drive it if you ask.

Later
Blue

Sell the rx8 back. Buy an STI or a 350z/G35 IMO.

agreed!!!

In all seroiusness, if you considering an Accord or G35, the STi is not what you want. The STi is aimed at the performance enthusiast only. It's a great performcance car that can be used as a good commuter. The G35 and Accord V6 are great commuters that have good performance.

I think the 6spd RX-8 is a little weak, but still a permfance car. It's very well balance with great control and feel, and once moving, it's a joy. For the price, I would rather have the STi or Evo, but then you have to live with the looks of those too choices. I'm sure there will soon be some nice performance upgrades for the RX-8.

Get what you want, but you don't need the type of driving the STi will alow you, get the G35 or Accord, or even leather Altima 3.5. It's no slouch.

Or just wait, I think mazda might release a turbo version of the rx8.

Just like the 350z, it's all about sales marketing. First sell the naturally aspirated 350z. Everyone buys it. Then the roadster comes out...damn, sell the NA and buy the roadster. Finally the turbo...damn, sell the roadster and get the turbo. You get the idea...smart marketing IMO.

Why sell you one model when they can sell you two or three.

Patience is a virtue

most car manufacturers are running away from turbos cuz their maintenance/break down under warranty costs are huge.. Look @ Audi, 2.7 is out and 4.2 v8 is in...
look @ supra (2005 will NOT be turbo), Z350, RX8, etc..

I got to test drive the STi and it was a lot of fun! The guy from the dealer let me get to about 90 before I got scared hehe. Too bad I'm poor and can't afford one.

Originally posted by amdmaxx
most car manufacturers are running away from turbos cuz their maintenance/break down under warranty costs are huge.. Look @ Audi, 2.7 is out and 4.2 v8 is in...
look @ supra (2005 will NOT be turbo), Z350, RX8, etc..

True, but if the consumer interest is enough then you'll see it. Hence Mazda speed.

Originally posted by bao ling

Just like the 350z, it's all about sales marketing. First sell the naturally aspirated 350z. Everyone buys it. Then the roadster comes out...damn, sell the NA and buy the roadster. Finally the turbo...damn, sell the roadster and get the turbo. You get the idea...smart marketing IMO.

True, but if the consumer interest is enough then you'll see it. Hence Mazda speed.


No offense, The Roadster would appeal to people who don't care as much about the car's performance I imagine, and want more of a daily driver/fun ride? I don't think the majority of people trade in the hatch/regular 350Z for a roadster, least not here, and especially from people who want performance. The turbo option makes more sense, but I don't really think we will see a 350Z*X* turbo.. i might be wrong, just how I feel since Nissan doesn't seem commited to use Turbos now.

Mazda speed came out with their tuned RX8 already, I do not think it had any Engine changes or addons, just an aero kit. Which was disapointing I guess.

The trend of manufacturers is to give the public what they want. High performance is back in "style" now. Just look at what companies are offering, almost every company has a performance line. People want fast sports cars again, 350z, wrx sti, rx8, supra, mustang cobra, mach 1, ect.

Manufacturers also realize the huge profit that the aftermarket companies are making. Thus automakers are offering aftermarket items or oem equivalents from the factory to cut into this market.

All I'm saying is that if there's enough public demand for a turbo model, you might see one from the factory again. Don't be surprised.

I think that there is a demand due to all the aftermarket turbo's and superchargers kits already made for the 350z. Just look in turbo magazine's index of kits.

And you have to realize that most people are more willing to purchase a factory turbo than install an aftermarket one themselves. I would ;)

I would like you STI drivers to try and get a hold of an EVO for a week, and do a comparison. I think even you die hard subie fans would have to face the facts. The EVO is a better car period. How many of you have actually driven an EVO, and compared the two cars back to back? The car handles better, it's faster in the 1/4, and has a better steering rack. Not to mention the seats and the time tested motor. You guys try and make yourselves feel better by saying the STI is a better "daily driver" please. How much are you planning on spending on suspension upgrades? You all bash this car to much. The STI, isn't even a real rally car with the 2.5ltr setup. Imagine what the EVO would be like stroked to 2.5, could you say, not even comparable? What ever you have to tell your selves to sleep better at night.

^^ ahh, no, Evo is not faster to 1/4.. and U htink u ar the one who should drive STi for a week...

lets do a test, 6 stock cars, 3 evo, 3 sti. 2 drivers, lets see about that. anyone interested in new england dragway this wed?

just see 1000s of reviews on the net/magazines, etc...
FYI stage 1 STi is already 370 hp...

A better car for you maybe! If I wanted the best car I think is the best I would buy a 911 with the x50 option. If I asked my Dad what the best car is he would say a Lexus. Get real ducaticorse.
The EVO is not better just diferent. I perfer the STI over the EVO.
I like the seats in the STI, I like the package. I can tell you have had limited automobile experiance just by your statements.

Oh and by the way was this thread about a person asking about the STI and the RX-8.

It did not say EVO and RX-8. He did not mention the EVO.

Blue

Hmm, Problem with RX-8 output eh? I remember the 1999 Mustang Cobra exhibiting this same problem...its all Ford's fault!

ducaticorse

Now as a person who has test driven both the EVO and the STI, Good to have friends with nice cars =D, I can honestly say that yes the EVO handles better, it sticks to pavement like spiderman sticks to walls, and has better steering.

The STI is definitely faster than the EVO, though it doesn't seem too much of a difference. The STI does not handle as well, and the steering is much less sensitive. I could write a full review but I don't have the patience to write that kind of detail here.

Point is, each car has its place, it just so happens that some of us would rather have a fun car that is better at what we do everyday..drive in streets that are in pretty crappy condition. In that respect the STI is superior.

Originally posted by ducaticorse
I would like you STI drivers to try and get a hold of an EVO for a week, and do a comparison. I think even you die hard subie fans would have to face the facts. The EVO is a better car period. How many of you have actually driven an EVO, and compared the two cars back to back? The car handles better, it's faster in the 1/4, and has a better steering rack. Not to mention the seats and the time tested motor. You guys try and make yourselves feel better by saying the STI is a better "daily driver" please. How much are you planning on spending on suspension upgrades? You all bash this car to much. The STI, isn't even a real rally car with the 2.5ltr setup. Imagine what the EVO would be like stroked to 2.5, could you say, not even comparable? What ever you have to tell your selves to sleep better at night.

Damn when did this thread turn into the evo vs. Sti thing all over again. That crap is getting old already.

"All bow down to the mighty evo; king of all cars, ruler's of the highways and byways." Thats what you wanted to hear rite? Now maybe you can sleep better at nite;)

The EVO does have the good steering/suspension over the impreza from what I've read. The impreza's needs to be tuned. I think subaru designers didn't take into account the additional weight of the 2.5 with the turbo.

As for this thread it was a discussion of comparable sport cars. I didn't consider the EVO because it is marked 10K over MSRP in hawaii. Which puts it into a higher category.

STI need suspension tuned. EVO will alway have quicker steering. STI has a perfect power train according to every magazine.

I love the EVO too man. I even considered buying one except for the above mentioned price. If it was MSRP I probably would be driving one now.

P.S. For those of you in hawaii that paid more that MSRP you are know in the automotive world as paying the "stupid tax." Reference:Motortrend.

Verdicts still out on who's faster in a straight line, 0-60 I'll give you the STI, 1/4 I'll argue. Anyway, to each his own in the long run, and I fully understand about brand loyalty. Goodnight all.

Dude, Even if the STI doesnt have exactly 300, its a Ridiculously fast car. Faster than the Evo, which is faster than my WRX, in turn faster than your RX8. Make the move to smooth.

Guys, seriously, the STI is not faster than the EVO. What's the fastest 1/4 for a stock STI? The Evo's done a 13.05.

some proof or a link would be nice

OK ALL!.. ducaticorse is a troll, a flamer. He brings nothing to the discussion. Ignore Him or Her.

I deal with these all the time plaing online games. They bait you on to make you respond.

ducaticorse is nothing more than a person tring to justify buying the second best car the EVO.

END of Story.. THE STI RULES at the I-Club.

ducaticorse go back to the EVO boards.:monkey:

come on now, i was just looking for a heated discussion.

Originally posted by Blue-Adept
OK ALL!.. ducaticorse is a troll, a flamer. He brings nothing to the discussion. Ignore Him or Her.

I deal with these all the time plaing online games. They bait you on to make you respond.

ducaticorse is nothing more than a person tring to justify buying the second best car the EVO.

END of Story.. THE STI RULES at the I-Club.

ducaticorse go back to the EVO boards.:monkey:

http://www.i-club.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

- Janq

a heated discussion? haha
the STi will win in the quarter mile.
The Evo will win in the twisties. BTW thats stock vs stock. The STi is faster in a line and the EVO handles slightly better. Period. End of discussion. :)

Originally posted by Snowy
I think your getting a little confused about "Crank" hp and "Wheel" hp. The car manufactures, and this holds true for almost all, measure the horspower of their engine at the crank. They also don't have the alternater, power steering, or A/C connected to the engine, this means that when it is actualy put into a car those suck up a lot of power, and then even more power is lost to the transmision (having to overcome the friction involved) so when you compare the claimed Hp to the wheel Hp you have to take all that into account. Also you have to understand what conditions the car is being dyno'd in, what is the ambient pressure, whats the ambient temp, how long has the engine been running, is the intercooler and or radiator hot or cold, what fuel is it running on. All that and a sh!t load more will all effect the measured wheel Hp. The only time I've heard of an engine making more than the claimed Hp was on the Dodge Neon SRT-4, Dodge got the claimed Hp delibritly when the engine was running it's worst, ie. hot intercooler, hot engine, yada yada. Now personaly I have to give props to Dodge for that, if more manufacturers put the claimed horse power at what the car would do in the worst condition I would be one happy puppy.
As for the STi, the engine really does have that Hp when tested as the manufactures do it. real world though, it varies on what type of dyno you like, some say 270 @ wheels, some say 220, either way though the All wheel drive and limited slips suck up a lot of power, thats why people get underdriven pullies and sliprier transmision fluid and engine oil.
If this is all true then why do nissans cars engines make different horsepower when they all have the vq35det?

Originally posted by awns729
If this is all true then why do nissans cars engines make different horsepower when they all have the vq35det?

Because the marketing dept. wants it that way, thats why.

Its been widely reported all year that all thoguh the 350Z is marketed as the top power maker the Infiniti G35 Coupe makes the same amount of CHP. Further I did my own research and talked with the regional service manager during the summer and he sated that the parts numbers between the 350Z & G35 ECU's are in fact different but the units are _exactly_ the same and directly interchangeable.
Further, I spoke with the service & parts manager of my own local Infinit dealership (large chain) that also happens to own & have a Nissan dealership right next door. The guy is big in local racing (Honda's) and he'd said that he and several techs from both sides were curious so they had a 350 Z 'Track' and G35 6MT locally dyno'd and found that they both made the same CHP and had nearly same WHP. Now this piece I cannot confirm but I have no reason to disbelieve him as he's the one who turned me on to the regional service manager to answer my power questions.

Also it was posited just last month by C&D that the G35 Sedan 6MT appears to be making the same WHP as the G35 Coupe and 350Z.

Its very common in the auto industry for manuf. to _under state_ thier performance number for reasons of marketing. Don't take what you read as gospel especially if there is a marketing guy handing it to you.

Just an FYI...

- Janq