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Why is socialism so bad again?

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Old 05-10-2006, 09:47 PM
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Why is socialism so bad again?

Right now gasoline in Caracas is about 12 CENTS per gallon?


http://today.reuters.com/news/newsar...1-ArticlePage2

You can bet that amongst their respective constituencies, Chavez has much higher approval ratings than Bush does too.

Last edited by psoper; 05-10-2006 at 09:49 PM.
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Old 05-10-2006, 10:59 PM
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I think it's less to do with government and more to do with this: http://www.democracynow.org/article....6/04/12/140206 It's a leftist source so it should make you happy.

As for the Bush ratings, there's no doubt they are low, but for them to be as low as gallup polls suggest is ridiculous. I'd be willing to say they're slightly below what they were in 2004 depending on who is being polled. Despite what's happening in the middle east, a lot of things (economy) are on a major rebound. I’m saying all of this as someone that falls into the majority of those disappointed. Don't forget how many Dems and liberals clung to pre-election gallup polls that all equated to absolutely nothing
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Old 05-11-2006, 07:35 AM
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Wrong you are Salty- Yes they have lots of oil, but so does Bakersfield.
In this case it has everything to do with their government because Chavez nationalized their oil industry, so Venezuela gets the oil money, no CEO's pulling down hundreds of millions in unearned compensation, no half-billion dollar retirement packages, the money goes back into health care, education and other things that help the people.

And I really doubt that there are 30% of americans thinking Bush is doing a good job, probably in truth more like 5%.

Energy costs being up 30-50% is not going to have a positive impact on our economy, the fact that Gold is now up over $720 when just a year ago it was less than $350- means that from that perspective at least, our dollar is worth about half what it was a year ago, so technically to stay even with that we all should have gotten raises on the order of 100%, maybe you mortgage guys did, but most of the rest of us that work for a living did not.

As for Chavez poll numbers, I bet Bush 's would be better if he behaved a bit more like Hugo;

"Chavez has won half a dozen elections since 1998, has no secret prisons and hasn't invaded anyone."
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Old 05-11-2006, 08:00 AM
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Wow! Is Venezuela really that great a place? Why are people not moving there?
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Old 05-11-2006, 08:09 AM
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Short summary of Hugo Chavez.

President of Venezuela. As the leader of the "Bolivarian Revolution", Chávez is known for his democratic socialist governance, his promotion of Latin American integration, and his criticism, which he terms anti-imperialism, of neoliberal globalization and United States foreign policy.[2]

A career military officer, Chávez founded the leftist Fifth Republic Movement after a failed 1992 coup d'état. Chávez was elected President in 1998[3] on promises of aiding Venezuela's poor majority, and reelected in 2000.[4] Domestically, Chávez has launched Bolivarian Missions to combat disease, illiteracy, malnutrition, poverty, and other social ills. Abroad, Chávez has acted against the Washington Consensus by supporting alternative models of economic development, and has advocated cooperation among the world's poor nations, especially those in Latin America.

Chávez has been severely criticized, mostly by Venezuela's middle and upper classes. He has been accused of electoral fraud, severe human rights violations, assaulting democracy in favor of dictatorship, and political repression,[5][6][7] and has survived both a brief 2002 coup and a failed 2004 recall referendum.[8][9][10] Whether viewed as a liberator or authoritarian demagogue, Chávez remains one of the most complex, controversial, and high-profile figures in modern Latin American politics.
FWIW.
Chávez is much-criticized, both in Venezuela and in international comments. His most vociferous opponents see him as a dangerous and authoritarian militarist who threatens Venezuelan democracy and global oil prices. Critics report that poverty, unemployment, and corruption figures under Chávez have not seen improvement.[75][76] They also note the 1% drop in Venezuela's per-capita GDP under Chávez.[citation needed] The opposition cites the many public hospitals that lack basic supplies, while others describe Chávez as a demagogue with a personality cult.[citation needed] They also question the payments to poor Venezuelans enrolling in Chávez's social programs, worrying that such dependency corrupts their work ethic and predispose them being pro-Chávez.


Chávez and Cuban leader Fidel Castro on the 2005-04-11 cover of the National Review. Chávez and Castro are often reported by the American media as being among the most dangerous threats facing democracy, free trade, and security in the Western Hemisphere.Chavez has also been criticized for his support of terrorism. Recent military defectors have told authorities that Chavez donated $1 million to al-Qaida shortly after the September 11, 2001 attacks in 2001. In addition, Chavez supports FARC, the rebel group in Colombia, and many have alleged that Chavez has supported many other far - left terrorist groups in addition to this.[5]

Chavez has been widely criticized by proponents of free speech, for controversial moves to restrict the abilities of private media to publicly criticize Chavez and his policies, and general censorship for certain other types of 'unfavourable' content.

Chávez also stands accused of electoral fraud and political repression, including keeping anti-Chávez activists as political prisoners.[77] Others claim that Chávez is not fulfilling promises regarding labor and land reform.[78][79][80] Abroad, Chávez is reported as being a confrontational ideologue[81] , and American public figures have accused him of supporting and training terrorists.[82][20] While Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have catalogued but not confirmed human rights violations under Chávez,[5][6] scores of deaths and hundreds of injuries inflicted during both opposition and pro-Chávez demonstrations saw little official investigation. Meanwhile, Chávez faces allegations of both censorship and ill treatment or torture of his opponents. Chávez supporters counter by alleging repression of Chávez supporters and social workers by anti-Chávez mayors; using this claim, the Chávez government is attempting to place local police forces under federal control. Meanwhile, relatives of victims who were killed in the April 11, 2002 clashes filed a case against Chávez and others at the International Criminal Court (ICC), stating that Chávez committed crimes against humanity. In February 2006, Luis Moreno Ocampo, Chief Prosecutor of the ICC, concluded that, thus far, the requirements to continue the investigation have not been satisfied according to the Rome Statute.

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Old 05-11-2006, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by psoper
Energy costs being up 30-50% is not going to have a positive impact on our economy
YOU! STFU AND READ:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...NGR8IPK9C1.DTL

Article Title: SALES TAX ON GASOLINE A BONANZA FOR STATE
Local governments also are big gainers as price at the pump continues to rise
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Old 05-11-2006, 11:41 AM
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As much as it sucks for me (and all of us with turbo AWD cars), the higher gas prices get the more likely conspicuous consumers in SUVs and huge sedans will stop driving as much or get more efficient cars.
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Old 05-11-2006, 11:41 AM
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Look what else is going on in caracas...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4635187.stm
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Old 05-11-2006, 11:44 AM
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^ Isn't that exactly what most American conservatives would argue in favor of if there was a likely attack on our soil by a foreign power? Guns in every home, a militia, and total payback for an attempted assasination of the President?


I would expect nothing less from any country who knew we were toying with the idea of ousting their leader...
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Old 05-11-2006, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by MVWRX
^ Isn't that exactly what most American conservatives would argue in favor of if there was a likely attack on our soil by a foreign power? Guns in every home, a militia, and total payback for an attempted assasination of the President?


I would expect nothing less from any country who knew we were toying with the idea of ousting their leader...
Duh, it's okay if we do it. We are the worlds superpower!

(BTW not saying that anything Chavez does is good for anyone but I couldn't help myself. MV hit the nail right on the head, but hey it's do as I say not as I do in our government, liberal or conservative it doesn't matter.)
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Old 05-11-2006, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by psoper
."Chavez has won half a dozen elections since 1998, has no secret prisons and hasn't invaded anyone."

You need to brush up on Chavez my friend. He keeps his people on a very short leash. Some are ecstatic if they get cardboard to patch the gaping holes in their roofs. Preaching about how gas is less expensive than water is pretty much your only pastime there. You know, people often attack the "if you don't like America then get the hell out!" stance, but it this case I think it applies. All people like you ever do is complain about how bad you have it here. If you think socialism is so great then pack your **** tonight and bask in it for the rest of your life!

Last edited by Salty; 05-11-2006 at 01:04 PM.
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Old 05-11-2006, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Salty
You need to brush up on Chavez my friend. He keeps his people on a very short leash.
These pro-chavez militias have been opening fire at opposition rallies. Most chavez supporters are very poor and uneducated peasants who have been promised entitlements and land redistribution by Chavez and his Bolivian counterpart.
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Old 05-11-2006, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by VIBEELEVEN
These pro-chavez militias have been opening fire at opposition rallies. Most chavez supporters are very poor and uneducated peasants who have been promised entitlements and land redistribution by Chavez and his Bolivian counterpart.
Ding Ding Ding Ding
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Old 05-11-2006, 05:53 PM
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The title for this thread kills me. Like the situation in Venezuela is some sort of argument for socialism. Whats even funnier is that it came from a Bizerkeleyite. Socialism is just swell if you are a third world country that is swimming in a product that your economy is entirely dependent on! How many countries fit that bill again? Anything is up when your at rock bottom! But if your economy depends on people working and being ambitious and productive what then? Well then you're going to have to have freedom and liberty! Now if we can just hold onto it.........................
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Old 05-11-2006, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by CIA
The US Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) reports that in 2001 Venezuela's gross domestic product (GDP) was estimated at $146.2 billion. The per capita GDP was estimated at $6,100. The annual growth rate of GDP was estimated at 2.7%. The average inflation rate in 2001 was 12.3%. The CIA defines GDP as the value of all final goods and services produced within a nation in a given year and computed on the basis of purchasing power parity (PPP) rather than value as measured on the basis of the rate of exchange. It was estimated that agriculture accounted for 5% of GDP, industry 40%, and services 55%.

According to the United Nations, in 2000 remittances from citizens working abroad totaled $115 million or about $5 per capita and accounted for approximately 0.1% of GDP. Worker remittances in 2001 totaled $136 million. Foreign aid receipts amounted to about $2 per capita.

The World Bank reports that in 2001 per capita household consumption (in constant 1995 US dollars) was $2,278. Household consumption includes expenditures of individuals, households, and nongovernmental organizations on goods and services, excluding purchases of dwellings. It was estimated that for the same period private consumption grew at an annual rate of 3%. Approximately 30% of household consumption was spent on food, 17% on fuel, 16% on health care, and 13% on education. The richest 10% of the population accounted for approximately 36.5% of household consumption and the poorest 10% approximately 0.8%. It was estimated that in 1997 about 67% of the population had incomes below the poverty line.
Oh, their 2005 GDP - per capita is ~$6500.00 compared to our $42,000.00.
But, hey, at least gas is cheap!

EDIT: Looks their poverty is currently @ ~38%!! :banana:

Go Hugo!!

Last edited by FW Motorsports; 05-11-2006 at 07:12 PM.
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