Salty

iTrader: (14)

And just for the sake of argument only 42% of the legal voting-age population voted in the Presidential campaign of 1998 that Clinton won.

The 80% figure that subaruguru posted was for participation within the population which makes the 1998 campaign seem that much more insignificant.

As a matter of fact, let's just assume each figure represents the voting population, shall we?

This is just a prediction as of now but I highly doubt it'll get anywhere near 42% if it happens to drop from 80%.

Another thing to consider is that the majority of the non-voting population is mostly part of the stubborn Sunnis. Just one group. Food for thought...

scoobsport98

iTrader: (5)

Where does he say that he wants an 'immediate pullout'?

here's the quote, if you hadn't read it:

"We need a new plan that sets fair and realistic goals for self-government in Iraq, and works with the Iraqi government on a specific timetable for the honorable homecoming of our forces."

So you disagree with this? How exactly is this trying to make Bush look bad? I see it as looking out for our troops.

Your false assumption may satisfy your apparent disdain for those suffering from liberalism, but I would like for you to know that I am a liberal, and I don't wish for the failure of our country's efforts, no matter who's in charge. I'm sure soemone like Kennedy, who has reached quite a high posiiton of power, could not have done so without the open mindedness needed to see past the politics in this situation.

I believe the disapproval rating for Bush in Iraq is reaching 60%. Perhaps more people also feel we need to adjust our plan a little to make sure we don't spend too many resources in one place and that troops can return to their families and try to pick their lives back up. I'll agree that Iraq is among the things we should be paying attention to, but I think that we are beginning to outstrech ourselves, and there are also many things on the domestic front that could use a little more monetary support.

I'm unemployed, uninsured, and just found out that my federal workstudy was cancelled. I may sound selfish, but we need some help here too.

Salty

iTrader: (14)

If that's what you think Kennedy is saying just 3 days before the Iraqi election then that's your opinion and I tip my hat to you. Now tackle the other half of subaruguru's post.

And turns out that there's ~280,000 expatriates that are expected to vote. The voting has already begun and they’re quite appreciative: http://abcnews.go.com/International/...C-RSSFeeds0312

Oh yeah! Turns out that three more of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi close Lieutenants were captured today and IRAQIS (Yes I said Iraqis, not Americans) may be close to capturing al-Zarqawi himself. This is the same group that vowed to disrupt the elections and claims responsibility in some recent suicide attacks on innocent Iraqi civilians: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp..._re_mi_ea/iraq

Salty

iTrader: (14)

Not to be too OT but I saw this picture in that story:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...bag11901281305

Read the caption carefully...

I believe it’s **** like this that will give the Iraqi youth the proper mind set for their generation and beyond.

scoobsport98

iTrader: (5)

So what, DID he call for an immediate pullout? Or is that what you guys are assuming he wants? Can you even give him a chance? All it says in the article is that as a timetable should be set to transfer contyrol and bring the troops home. I can't argue with that... can you? (you never answered it the first time I asked). Currently, we don't know how many more months or years we will be dropping billiions of dollars into that country. Chances are we will have to be helping them monetarily for years to come, regardless if we are there or not with a strong military presence. So I don't think a complete, immediate pullout would be good, because that would end up in disaster, and we would end up spending more in the long run, (and the premise of the war would be somewhat lost, or failed). You really think that is what Kennedy wants? He's a US senator, elected to position. If he were that openly irrational, would he still be in office? I know he's pretty far left, but it would surprise me if he wishes for the complete failure of our country's efforts. Yes, they may be thinking 'this will make Bush look bad,' but I don't think that is the primary motivation behind calling for a timetable to bring the troops home.
People are already being called back up for their second tours, when they had not willingly volunteered (yeah, the contract they signed said they could be called back up, but that doesn't mean you're expecting it). If we go much longer, the pressure for and controversy over a possible draft might be somewhat disastrous.

This isn't meant to refute anything I said, is it? Both of these things are positive steps toward stability. If anything, what you say here only supports the notion that the Iraqis are more ready than some of us thought to govern themselves. If you thought I wanted everything to fail (like Teddy ), well, then you have the wrong imression of the average democrat.

scoobsport98

iTrader: (5)

Exactly. The bad thing is, there are similar scenes of people gathered around dead bodies of civilians that were accidentaly killed. What do you think those people are thinking? And, sorry to say, but the civilian deaths probably get significantly more media coverage and the people in the mideast watching Al-Jazeera hear much more about killed civilians than insurgents killing their own countrymen.

In a way, this is an information war. Pictures and stories of scenes like the one you posted need to be seen and heard.

unrelated: I wrote a brief essay a couple years back on 'the voice of democracy' for the VFW... I'll try to find it and post it up here. I'd like for you guys on the right to see that a liberal can be patriotic and rational

Salty

iTrader: (14)

If Sen. Kennedy had made this proposal after a successful election then I wouldn't argue with it whatsoever. After all, our troops cannot stay in Iraq till the end of time. But the timing of Kennedy's statement is ****-poor and reeks of political diversion in the sense that Bush may actually succeed in making him look bad.

He didn't get to the podium with his hands in his pockets as he stared at the ground like timid child with some half-assed opinion. We're talking about a statement given 72hrs from a historical election. A time when troops are needed the most for security reasons. These security forces will need to have a presence even after the election for a extended period of time.

You see, if this wasn't a politically motivating statement in order to save his own hide, Kennedy would have said the same exact thing on February 2nd. In that case I would have agreed with him in a sense that we do need to consider a transition.

scoobsport98

iTrader: (5)

If you (and others) think this is about making the opposite party look bad, then this country has absolutely NOTHING to look forward to in the future years in politics.

I really don't see how the timing of his statement makes it politically motivated. One could say that he is assuming that the elections will go well (as many now are), and he is looking forward. Assuming the elections do go over well, wouldn't you agree that we should scaling back our own presence. After all, we're trying to let them govern themselves, so the insurgents will lose their premise to attack (an American occupation). So continue in this direction, shouldn't we start pulling out? Again, assuming that all goes well and chaos doesn't break out.

I guess I didn't actually see him make the statement. His attitude in delivering it might be criticized, and I may have missed something there. Or maybe I'm just missing a hatred toward him and all he stands for.

Salty

iTrader: (14)

Yes and I've already said we should pullout. All I'm saying is that the timing was very poor on Sen. Kennedy’s behalf.

It's this very factor that ensures our presence for the time being. We cannot let our hopes ride on this assumption because there's too much at risk:

Let me ask you this... Do you think anyone besides Sen. Kennedy has actually thought about a solid withdrawal plan from Iraq? Honestly?! Maybe those that do this for a living with brass stars on their shoulders? I'm 110% sure that some of the most competent U.S. military strategists have a plan for withdrawal.

This very factor along with **** poor timing proves it's a politically motivated statement. Why else would anyone give a damn about a drunken Senator's opinion that just so happens to be batting for the team against Bush?

scoobsport98

iTrader: (5)

Feb 2nd would have been three days AFTER the election. Two days after many Iraqis would start thinking 'We're in charge, thank you... what are you still doing here?'

If you could agree with it then, why not now? Sounds like you're a little 'politically motivated' yourself. I have a feeling if a more moderate democrat or republican would have made the same statement at the same time, you wouldn't have thought twice before agreeing with them.

Don't you think this is something important enough to think ahead about? Bringing up an idea a week before it should be implemented isn't so crazy, in my books, it's being time-concious, realizing that things take time to approve, plan, and employ.

He said that 'the American occupation has become part of the problem' This may be a little extreme, and would definitely make any republican stop listening. However, after the election, our occupation WILL begin to be part of the problem, only contributing the the insurgents premise for attack. We need to stay to maintain stability, but I do agree that we should start scaling back the number of troops there, as to make a statement to the Iraqi people (including the insurgents). Once again, Kennedy didn't call for an immediate pullout. He said we should start scaling back after the election and be out by the end of '05.

If you want to see politically motivated, look at the first post in this thread.

scoobsport98

iTrader: (5)

So, you get on us for being pessimistic, then say not to be too hopeful when we are optimistic? What am I to do?