SouthEast Asian Countries: China could hand U.S. its own a**
11-23-2005, 10:29 AM
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SouthEast Asian Countries: China could hand U.S. its own a**
http://www.insightmag.com/Media/Medi...eastasia_1.htm
East Asia allies doubt U.S. could win war with China
Chinese troops lined up for a review by President Bush and China's President Hu Jintao on Nov. 20 in Beijing (Pablo Martinez Monsivais/AP)
The overwhelming assessment by Asian officials, diplomats and analysts is that the U.S. military simply cannot defeat China. It has been an assessment relayed to U.S. government officials over the past few months by countries such as Australia, Japan and South Korea. This comes as President Bush wraps up a visit to Asia, in which he sought to strengthen U.S. ties with key allies in the region.
Most Asian officials have expressed their views privately. Tokyo Governor Shintaro Ishihara has gone public, warning that the United States would lose any war with China.
"In any case, if tension between the United States and China heightens, if each side pulls the trigger, though it may not be stretched to nuclear weapons, and the wider hostilities expand, I believe America cannot win as it has a civic society that must adhere to the value of respecting lives," Mr. Ishihara said in an address to the Washington-based Center for Strategic and International Studies.
Mr. Ishihara said U.S. ground forces, with the exception of the Marines, are "extremely incompetent" and would be unable to stem a Chinese conventional attack. Indeed, he asserted that China would not hesitate to use nuclear weapons against Asian and American cities—even at the risk of a massive U.S. retaliation.
The governor said the U.S. military could not counter a wave of millions of Chinese soldiers prepared to die in any onslaught against U.S. forces. After 2,000 casualties, he said, the U.S. military would be forced to withdraw.
"Therefore, we need to consider other means to counter China," he said. "The step we should be taking against China, I believe, is economic containment."
Officials acknowledge that Mr. Ishihara's views reflect the widespread skepticism of U.S. military capabilities in such countries as Australia, India, Japan, Singapore and South Korea. They said the U.S.-led war in Iraq has pointed to the American weakness in low-tech warfare.
"When we can't even control parts of Anbar, they get the message loud and clear," an official said, referring to the flashpoint province in western Iraq.
As a result, Asian allies of the United States are quietly preparing to bolster their militaries independent of Washington. So far, the Bush administration has been strongly opposed to an indigenous Japanese defense capability, fearing it would lead to the expulsion of the U.S. military presence from that country.
On Nov. 16, Mr. Bush met with Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi. The two leaders discussed the realignment of the U.S. military presence in Japan and Tokyo's troop deployment in Iraq.
During his visit to Washington in early November, Mr. Ishihara met senior U.S. defense officials. They included talks with U.S. Defense Deputy Undersecretary for Asian and Pacific Affairs Richard Lawless to discuss the realignment of the U.S. military presence in Japan.
For his part, Mr. Ishihara does not see China as evolving into a stable democracy with free elections.
"I believe such predictions are totally wrong," Mr. Ishihara said
East Asia allies doubt U.S. could win war with China
Chinese troops lined up for a review by President Bush and China's President Hu Jintao on Nov. 20 in Beijing (Pablo Martinez Monsivais/AP)
The overwhelming assessment by Asian officials, diplomats and analysts is that the U.S. military simply cannot defeat China. It has been an assessment relayed to U.S. government officials over the past few months by countries such as Australia, Japan and South Korea. This comes as President Bush wraps up a visit to Asia, in which he sought to strengthen U.S. ties with key allies in the region.
Most Asian officials have expressed their views privately. Tokyo Governor Shintaro Ishihara has gone public, warning that the United States would lose any war with China.
"In any case, if tension between the United States and China heightens, if each side pulls the trigger, though it may not be stretched to nuclear weapons, and the wider hostilities expand, I believe America cannot win as it has a civic society that must adhere to the value of respecting lives," Mr. Ishihara said in an address to the Washington-based Center for Strategic and International Studies.
Mr. Ishihara said U.S. ground forces, with the exception of the Marines, are "extremely incompetent" and would be unable to stem a Chinese conventional attack. Indeed, he asserted that China would not hesitate to use nuclear weapons against Asian and American cities—even at the risk of a massive U.S. retaliation.
The governor said the U.S. military could not counter a wave of millions of Chinese soldiers prepared to die in any onslaught against U.S. forces. After 2,000 casualties, he said, the U.S. military would be forced to withdraw.
"Therefore, we need to consider other means to counter China," he said. "The step we should be taking against China, I believe, is economic containment."
Officials acknowledge that Mr. Ishihara's views reflect the widespread skepticism of U.S. military capabilities in such countries as Australia, India, Japan, Singapore and South Korea. They said the U.S.-led war in Iraq has pointed to the American weakness in low-tech warfare.
"When we can't even control parts of Anbar, they get the message loud and clear," an official said, referring to the flashpoint province in western Iraq.
As a result, Asian allies of the United States are quietly preparing to bolster their militaries independent of Washington. So far, the Bush administration has been strongly opposed to an indigenous Japanese defense capability, fearing it would lead to the expulsion of the U.S. military presence from that country.
On Nov. 16, Mr. Bush met with Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi. The two leaders discussed the realignment of the U.S. military presence in Japan and Tokyo's troop deployment in Iraq.
During his visit to Washington in early November, Mr. Ishihara met senior U.S. defense officials. They included talks with U.S. Defense Deputy Undersecretary for Asian and Pacific Affairs Richard Lawless to discuss the realignment of the U.S. military presence in Japan.
For his part, Mr. Ishihara does not see China as evolving into a stable democracy with free elections.
"I believe such predictions are totally wrong," Mr. Ishihara said
11-23-2005, 12:21 PM
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Yeah, war sucks, but that's not the point. This is being voiced because China is poised to give us a thorough butt-whoopin'.
If you think that prisoner abuse is a big deal, you have a major surprise coming when they wipe out anyone and everyone capable of puting up a fight. Rules of engagement? Kill whitey!
Does it not concern you that government leaders are voicing this "concern?"
If you think that prisoner abuse is a big deal, you have a major surprise coming when they wipe out anyone and everyone capable of puting up a fight. Rules of engagement? Kill whitey!
Does it not concern you that government leaders are voicing this "concern?"
11-23-2005, 02:43 PM
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A war with china would be interesting to strategize. The sheer number of people in China is one major factor. On the other hand propaganda would have to reign supreme. Many of the people of china are ready for change in political structure. The west has managed to penetrate the curtain. As technology goes the US is far superior. Due to the function of communism china is any where from 20-40 yrs behind the rest of modern civialized nations. An embargo would certainly have to be put in place on the country of china. There is simply not enough food to feed everyone there. It could be won. It wouldn't be pretty but it could be won.
11-23-2005, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by ipozestu
... On the other hand propaganda would have to reign supreme. Many of the people of china are ready for change in political structure. The west has managed to penetrate the curtain. As technology goes the US is far superior. Due to the function of communism china is any where from 20-40 yrs behind the rest of modern civialized nations. An embargo would certainly have to be put in place on the country of china. There is simply not enough food to feed everyone there.
11-24-2005, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by ipozestu
A war with china would be interesting to strategize. The sheer number of people in China is one major factor. On the other hand propaganda would have to reign supreme. Many of the people of china are ready for change in political structure. The west has managed to penetrate the curtain. As technology goes the US is far superior. Due to the function of communism china is any where from 20-40 yrs behind the rest of modern civialized nations. An embargo would certainly have to be put in place on the country of china. There is simply not enough food to feed everyone there. It could be won. It wouldn't be pretty but it could be won.
The other factor is technology that matches ours via purchase from Russia, theft of secrets, and saboteurs throughout our military and society. The technology match would eliminate the ability to fight from a distance, and to allow our best technology to work (radar jammers, aeigis warfare, subs, satellites). Saboteurs would keep our jets from ever leaving the ground. Software engineers could take down our battle networks, and negate any technical advantage. Then, when it comes to ground combat, we just don't have enough people to do the job.
The one bright side of 9/11 is that we are now a bit more guarded, and less likely to be wiped out in some pre-emptive strike, and at least now we have some modern contingency plans (shadow government, etc).
Last edited by HellaDumb; 11-24-2005 at 09:27 AM.
11-24-2005, 10:19 AM
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By the same token, Do you think Karl Rove and Dick Cheney, hell even you would lose a wink of sleep knowing that 50% of our population would be wiped out?
You'd also probably think they'd be doing us a favor by killing a hunderd million or so treasonous, mentaly ill liberals.
You'd also probably think they'd be doing us a favor by killing a hunderd million or so treasonous, mentaly ill liberals.
11-24-2005, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by HellaDumb
The reason they would win is because they don't give a rat's behind about human rights. Do you think China's leaders would lose a wink of sleep knowing that 50% of their population would be wiped out? They probably think we'd be doing them a favor by killing half a billion people.
The other factor is technology that matches ours via purchase from Russia, theft of secrets, and saboteurs throughout our military and society. The technology match would eliminate the ability to fight from a distance, and to allow our best technology to work (radar jammers, aeigis warfare, subs, satellites). Saboteurs would keep our jets from ever leaving the ground. Software engineers could take down our battle networks, and negate any technical advantage. Then, when it comes to ground combat, we just don't have enough people to do the job.
The one bright side of 9/11 is that we are now a bit more guarded, and less likely to be wiped out in some pre-emptive strike, and at least now we have some modern contingency plans (shadow government, etc).
The other factor is technology that matches ours via purchase from Russia, theft of secrets, and saboteurs throughout our military and society. The technology match would eliminate the ability to fight from a distance, and to allow our best technology to work (radar jammers, aeigis warfare, subs, satellites). Saboteurs would keep our jets from ever leaving the ground. Software engineers could take down our battle networks, and negate any technical advantage. Then, when it comes to ground combat, we just don't have enough people to do the job.
The one bright side of 9/11 is that we are now a bit more guarded, and less likely to be wiped out in some pre-emptive strike, and at least now we have some modern contingency plans (shadow government, etc).
Last edited by ipozestu; 11-24-2005 at 03:29 PM.
11-24-2005, 03:40 PM
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Technology wins over sheer numbers. We have the most powerful navy in the world. Not that we'd ever go to war with China. After all, they make everything we have. We love China for that. If, and that's a massive if, they attacked us and used nukes, over 2500 of the most advanced, multiple warhead nukes, pointed at them right now says we'd win. China has a starving nation to support. They can't support a long term engagement. Again, we'd never go to war with China and I seriously doubt China wants to lock talons with the most powerful nation on the planet.
Last edited by Chrisnonstop; 11-24-2005 at 03:45 PM.
11-25-2005, 03:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Chrisnonstop
I seriously doubt China wants to lock talons with the most powerful nation on the planet.
11-25-2005, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by psoper
You'd also probably think they'd be doing us a favor by killing a hunderd million or so treasonous, mentaly ill liberals.
11-25-2005, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by HellaDumb
Not true. Most of our military is made up of patriotic conservatives. The liberals would be bending over backwards to serve their new Chinese masters... right before they take a bullet too.
