This is about the extent of the effort I'm willing to expend for you -- is approximately 30,000 dead civilians enough for you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dresden_firebombing

How about something worse than just killing them? Rape, torture, etc.?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre

And for something that was primarily a civilian target, how about 140,000+ dead?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_...a_and_Nagasaki

Study your history. Terrorists aren't the only ones that commit acts of terror.

And "leftist agenda"? What planet are you from? This thread is a critique of Obama -- read the original post I made again.

 

Hiroshima, Nagasaki and Dresden all were massive producers of military industrial goods and that's where the bombs went. Just so happened a great deal of citizens lived there which also could have been avoided had their governments surrendered. There fate was secured by their fascists governments inability to admit defeat. Either way, none of the instances you reference were purely civilian. NYC during 9/11 was.

 

Especially if you ignore the Pentagon death toll.

 

I like how everyone likes to play the waaaa card for the terrorists. Ever had to deal with them personally????? Yea waterboarding not so bad its actually common practice at schools like SERE. Yes we put our own soldiers through this technique and it is far less bad than attaching a TA 312 phone to yur nutz and turning the crank.

Playing by the rules. Did you know that we currently exceed the rules set fourth in the Geneva conventions in a good way.

Did you know that according to the rules set fourth by the Geneva conventions the moment a citizen or occupant of a country takes up arms against a different army while not wearing a dedicated uniform of the combatant army that person becomes a SPY!

Do you know what the punishment for being a spy on a battlefield is? DEATH by execution and its immeadiate. Thats just according to the Geneva convention.

Go get urself waterboarded and you will realize #1 its not so bad #2 its a great way of getting information. Its amazing what you will tell someone when you think they are going to drown you.

When you realize we are dealing with BAD people who would like nothing more than to kill our american boys over there maybe your opinion will change if it doesnt maybe you should consider buying a plane ticket for Iraq/Afghanistan I can steer you to Mr. Raheed who will gladly sell you an AK for 50 bucks and you can go shoot at our soldiers too.

OH OH HUMAN RIGHTS!!! This is a travesty and I am a terrible person for saying such things. Yea its amazing how much you could give a rats a$$ about someones human rights after they try to not only take your rights but take your life.

We are very efficient at aprehending the bad guys and it is very rare we catch or capture "innocent civilians" after a fire fight or an attack.

Always remember we are dealing with "BAD" people over there and you will not ever understand until you step foot in that land. By stepping foot I dont mean by being on a FOB or COB I mean being out in the dirt. Its an eye opening experience.

 

^^^^^

We like to pick and choose which rules we abide by. That's a problem in and of itself.

And if waterboarding isn't so bad, why would it work? Especially after a second or third time when you realize you're not going to die?

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^My comparison is having a long or short bone broken and having a fingernail ripped out, or electric shock to the nutz but I have never had to have electric shock to my nutz. I didnt mean to say being waterboarded is a walk in the park.

I recognize it is torture if you put it next to the webster definition, however I feel it is a very effective means of extracting critical information.

People need to remember we dont just pick up some random person off the street and waterboard them. These are bad people hell bent to do harm to Americans in the name of Allah. Even then the people waterboarded are the ones we feel have time critical information that we can use to SAVE LIVES be they American or host nation.

So what if some individual needs to take a little shower they probably need anyway if we are able to extract information that will save lives it is worth it IMO.

 

^^^^

You can't pick which rules you want to ignore because the enemies are "bad" people or we "really" need information.

"If you don't stick to your values when they're being tested, they're not values—they're hobbies. You know, one of the genius moves of The Founders was not writing The Bill of Rights on the back window of a dusty van. " (John Stewart)

 

From a tactical sense I don't knock the Pentagon attack. I wear the uniform and understand terrorists have tried to and would love to kill me. The attack on the Pentagon is not the same as the attack on the trade center. Just the same as the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor would have been starkly different had that attack been on, say, LA or any other civilian population on the west coast. Make no mistake I am distinguishing between the Pentagon and the WTC.

 

Agreed on picking and choosing which rules to follow. HOWEVER!!!

Were those rules written with fundamntalist terrorists in mind. Maybe the rules are in need of a little modification.

American people need ot come to the realization that we live in this utopia and sleep soundly at night because some people are willing to do bad things to bad people to keep us safe. If we continue to be the global pacifists that we are wanting to hold hands and sing comba ya with people that want to kill us it will be our demise.

If our media continues to decide the outcome of our wars by highlighting every "atrocity" commited by our soldiers and covert warriors it will be to our demise.

For the most part people here just dont understand that there are people out there allah bent to see us die. They will do it any way they can just because you are american and they believe they are doing gods will by killing the infadel.

 

I would prefer if no one asked how we defend our country and just be glad that we do. But that's not how it works. If we want others to follow the same ideals and practices that we do, we have to lead by example. One criticism of our country is that we don't practice what we preach (i.e. hypocrites).

"Torturing" as a method of revenge or deterrence isn't going to help our mission. "Torturing" as a means of extracting accurate and vital information isn't consistent. (torturing is in quotations to indicate the UN's definition)

If we want to promote our ideals of equality and freedom, then we have to stand by that. There's no backpedaling where we can say it's too difficult to stop terrorism and we need to give ourselves more leeway. That just means that we only stand by our ideals when it's easy, but when it becomes difficult, we just moves the goal posts to make it easy again. The basic rules don't change when an enemy becomes more difficult to stop.

 

just playing devils advocate

both planes had civilians

 

I like your outlook and respect your opinion.

You speak alot about promoting our ideals of fredom and equality. We didnt invade Iraq and Afghanistan to promote our ideals. At least I hope not. We invaded said countries to #1 exact revenge against the sick terrorist "insert bad word ending with ks" who blew up the world trade center. As well as dispose an evil dictator "with suspected weapons of mass distruction."

As said above people will never understand war with a pacifist mindset. It sounds alot like you have had the geneva conventions rules of land warfare briefing one too many times. It works and is all fine and dandy in 3rd dimentional warfare setting but were fighting in the 4th dimention and I just dont think the rules are valid anymore.

I am guessing you are military you may or may not like this book. Wars Of Blood And Faith. "the conflicts of the 21st century" it was written by Ralph Peters. I found it to be a great read. I am not saying it is the gospel far from it. The book will give you some food for thought from the top levels and front lines.