herrjr

iTrader: (12)

1. I didn't write, "help," I wrote "sent." In any case, it was used to bring up the point that Communist Russia began before **** Germany did.

2. Your conclusion: people that believe as I do are stupid.

3. I don't care for politics or political science. I believe that guns resolve political disputes better than anything else, such as the Founding Fathers did. A tyranny could care less what anyone believes.

My final point: you cannot have a substantive argument with someone that you already concluded is stupid. Thus, there is no dialogue possible here, or with anyone else that apparently doesn't believe what you believe. You claim to want to have a real discussion, yet you label and judge from the outset. So again, look at yourself first before you criticize others for claiming that they are acting in a manner that you yourself acted in initially.

Magish

iTrader: (2)

How much can you really pull out of 21 seconds of a campaign rally? AmeriCorps, PeaceCorps, and Freedom Corps are not paramilitary organizations, as the brown shirts were.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df2p6...16451854.shtml

Transcript taken from: http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/200908270033

Magish

iTrader: (2)

1) Whether you said "sent" or "helped" (I would argue that they helped, and did not send but then we would simply be arguing about semantics) is irrelevant. Almost as irrelevant as the fact that the Germans helped Lenin get back to Russia in 1917 is to today's political debate.

2) Perhaps I was too crass. I'm sorry. Lets move on.

3) So political disputes must necessarily be settled by guns? Doesn't the very idea of modern civilization and liberal democracy (as first laid out in the constitution and bill of rights) require some kind of faith in politics and political science?

You are assuming that we live in a tyrannical state. While some freedoms have still been curtailed, we still have the right to vote, to assemble, and to disagree with the government. There were no mass executions or arrests when the tea parties came to Washington. And personally, I am living pretty damn free right now. I still have guns, I still practice whatever religion I damn well please, and my business is booming. Now why the hell would I want to risk any of that?

I sincerely apologize for calling you stupid. Lets move on and get to substance. How is Obama like Hitler? How has he created (or is he creating) a "brown shirts" type movement?

Jin

herrjr

iTrader: (12)

side note from wiki about issue between sent and helped:
Following the 1917 February Revolution in Russia which saw the overthrow of Great War adversary Emperor Nicholas II, Wilhelm arranged for the exiled Russian Bolshevik leader Vladimir Lenin to return home from Switzerland via Germany, Sweden and Finland. Wilhelm hoped that Lenin would create political unrest back in Russia, which would help to end the war on the Eastern front, allowing Germany to concentrate on defeating the Western allies. The Swiss communist Fritz Platten managed to negotiate with the German government for Lenin and his company to travel through Germany by rail, on the so-called "sealed train". Lenin arrived in Petrograd on 16 April 1917, and seized power seven months later in the October Revolution. Wilhelm's strategy paid off when Russia signed the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk on 3 March 1918, withdrawing from the war and ceding Finland. On Lenin's orders, Nicholas II, Wilhelm's first cousin; Empress Alexandra; their five children; and their few servants were executed by firing squad in Yekaterinburg on 17 July 1918.


Apology accepted. I'll need some time to gather my references that I hope clearly articulate the parallels. There's a lot of material to scour through, and it will take time to separate what is substance from what is superficial, such as Obama is a charismatic leader with an agenda, and so forth.

The faith in politics and political science can only have merit if people view each other on common ground. If one group always views the other group as "stupid" or "immoral" or whatever other names each is hurling at one another, then how can politics succeed diplomatically?

I agree with you, now, that stuff, relatively is pretty good. However, I pay tens of thousands of dollars annually to two entitlement programs, which are supposed to assist me when I'm older, but is daily trumpeted in the media as being on the verge of insolvency. It is plain that anyone productive that is of college age and a decade older, and all those younger than that, will be paying into these programs and will not see anything in return. This is immoral to me and against what the Founding Fathers stood for. This part to me is very, very bad.

Furthermore, regardless of the way things are now, this can always change very quickly, especially if we take things for granted. I've heard first-hand accounts from Germans and German Jews that experienced Kristallnacht, which literally happened overnight. And I've met Chinese and Japanese Americans that suffered the indignity of being targeted by our federal government due to their ethnicity. Changes like the Patriot Act and the Military Commissions Bill (which Leahy quite eloquently spoke out against), cumulatively represent an attack on the First, Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth Amendments. Olbermann articulated these points rather well, too, as I recall.
We are a nation of laws, and some laws are in place now to strip us of that protection that prior laws provided us. The **** reference to these issues is here: Reichstagsbrandverordnung/Reichstag Fire Decree. From wikipedia: "The decree nullified many of the key civil liberties of German citizens. With ***** in powerful positions in the German government, the decree was used as the legal basis of imprisonment of anyone considered to be opponents of the *****, and to suppress publications not considered "friendly" to the **** cause." Is that not a substantial connection? Granted, the Bush Administration was responsible for these atrocious instances, but the fact that the Obama Administration has chosen to keep them functional as law is of great concern.

I would vehemently argue that we have reached the point where one group is vilified, while the other is exalted. We see this in the criticism of the healthcare town hall protests and the Tea Party events. It appears that an American cannot disagree with Obamacare and rampant taxation without automatically being labeled stupid, a right-wing nutjob, old, white and male, tools of the vast right-wing conspiracy and so forth. I am certainly none of these. The fact that the (MMO)media did not broadcast how a group of union members assaulted a man passing out "Don't Tread on Me" pamphlets is very troubling to me, to the point that it seems like a validation of the attack. This level of judgement and condemnation can only occur when a group views itself of being actually right and possessing the proper perspective, without necessarily being actually right and of possession of the proper perspective.

History (and Hollywood), has given us **** Germany as the prime example of a country that took control of its people, and bent them to its will. Thus, whenever we see politicians acting fascistly, we generally tend to compare them to the **** example, because it is our common point of reference.

Obviously, details will never directly relate. But we also know that history tends to repeat itself, especially when viewed at the civilization level. Hitler said that the fact that society so soon forgot the Armenian genocide, was proof that their own attempts at exterminating a people would succeed. He was somewhat right in that regard. And he was very clear about what his agenda precisely was. He even published it. He used his powers of persuasion to lure people to follow his belief system, and when he encountered resistance he used brute force to subdue them.

On a side note, and this is at my most objective sense, I would state that those that compare Obama to Hitler, are on the surface, insulting Hitler. Hitler was a great orator; Obama, on the other hand, is a decent reader. But policy-wise, the parallels do exist, and that is what is being referenced when some say that Obama is like Hitler.

FW Motorsports