The latest rumor...
12-02-2004, 06:58 PM
#16
250,000-mile Club President
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Bizerkeley
Posts: 4,770
Car Info: MBP 02 WRX wagon
Originally Posted by Oaf
Not that it matters nearly 1000 years after the fact, but followers of Islam caused the Crusades...not the Christians.
12-02-2004, 09:00 PM
#17
iClub Silver Vendor
iTrader: (25)
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Participating in some Anarchy!
Posts: 15,494
Car Info: 2005 LGT wagon
Originally Posted by psoper
No, Christians can't do anything wrong, never have, never will.
Can you do the same?
In the past, Christianity has been used to justify some very nasty stuff.
But I can't remember the last time I saw a video showing followers of Jerry Falwell hacking the head off a "non believer".
12-03-2004, 10:47 AM
#18
Registered User
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: UCIrvine
Posts: 3,312
Car Info: '05 Crystal Grey Metallic WRX Sport Wagon
Originally Posted by Oaf
Not that it matters nearly 1000 years after the fact, but followers of Islam caused the Crusades...not the Christians.
I call bulls*** on this. The crusades were a drunken frat style party launched every few years from Christian strongholds across most of Europe and the middle east...they raped every woman and stole every good, killed every man and child between where they lived and where they were going. I don't care what you think the Islamic people at the time did to insite this (other than simply living and being Islamic), but it was all Christians who went ape-s*** across the continent.
An aside: if the crusades don't matter 1000 years after the fact, why do people care so much about the life of 'saviors' that lived 2000 years ago? What I'm saying is: why is it so easy for religious people to remember only the good their religion has brought and completely ignore/write-off the horrific evils all religions have imposed on the world?
Last edited by MVWRX; 12-03-2004 at 10:55 AM.
12-03-2004, 11:00 AM
#19
VIP Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Detroit, Where the weak are killed and eaten...
Posts: 2,064
Car Info: 02 Impreza WRX Sedan & 2008 GMC Sierra 4x4
Originally Posted by MVWRX
What I'm saying is: why is it so easy for religious people to remember only the good their religion has brought and completely ignore/write-off the horrific evils all religions have imposed on the world?
12-03-2004, 12:26 PM
#20
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 1,402
Car Info: 02 WRX wagon=dead; rollin' in a Craptastic Camry!
Originally Posted by MVWRX
An aside: if the crusades don't matter 1000 years after the fact, why do people care so much about the life of 'saviors' that lived 2000 years ago? What I'm saying is: why is it so easy for religious people to remember only the good their religion has brought and completely ignore/write-off the horrific evils all religions have imposed on the world?
The Old Testament contains in it strict laws which governed the Jewish religion/culture. A basic principle was that if you broke the rules, you had to make it right with God by doing "stuff" such as sacrificing animals. The importance of Jesus is that he said he was the end all, be all of sacrifice on the cross, and the "good news" is that all people are granted forgiveness of their sins if they just ask. That is why a man born 2,000 years ago is important - he is the center of the religion, much like Mohammed is the center of Islam.
FWIW, when I asked about the crusades as a young man, the answer I was given in church was, "that is not the result of Christianity, it is the result of the corruption of the Catholic Church". They would further minimize the issue by saying that Jesus changes individual hearts, but men pervert religion as a means to gain power. I think it is a good thing for people, regardless of their religion, to remember only the good, and it is also important for them to condemn the bad things that are done in the name of their religion.
12-03-2004, 12:41 PM
#21
iClub Silver Vendor
iTrader: (25)
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Participating in some Anarchy!
Posts: 15,494
Car Info: 2005 LGT wagon
Originally Posted by MVWRX
I call bulls*** on this. The crusades were a drunken frat style party launched every few years from Christian strongholds across most of Europe and the middle east...they raped every woman and stole every good, killed every man and child between where they lived and where they were going. I don't care what you think the Islamic people at the time did to insite this (other than simply living and being Islamic), but it was all Christians who went ape-s*** across the continent.
Pay particular attention to books pertaining to the storming/looting of Jerusalem, the 1st & 2nd seiges of Vienna, etc.
12-03-2004, 12:48 PM
#22
Registered User
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: UCIrvine
Posts: 3,312
Car Info: '05 Crystal Grey Metallic WRX Sport Wagon
Thanks for the info on religion. The thing is, what I meant to say is more like this. From what I can grasp, religion is about bettering one's self. Christians, for the most part, do this by learning from the teachings of Jesus Christ and reading the bible. And they're good at that. But they choose NOT to learn from the bad things that happen (ie the corruption of the Catholic church causing the crusades). My point is that the word of Christ is worthless unless you use it along with experience. We know churches get corrupted, it happens all the time (recently with the priest+little boys thing, selling absolvences back in the day, etc.). So why hasn't the Christian church as a whole recognized this and turned Christianity into a personal, non-organized, anonymous religion? If everyone practiced in their own homes, and didn't recruit anyone else, and didn't have less respect for people who happend to not believe what they do, then I (and pretty much everyone else) would have no reason to dislike the religion. On a personal level, religion can change lives for the better. But when you tell anyone that they have power over others because they are religious figures (priests, etc), then you're asking for trouble. Especially because their power comes from something that has to be taken on faith.
Maybe this post will **** everyone off, I don't care. My prediction is that the end of humanity will come as a result of organized religion and, if there is a god, noone that practices organized religion will be 'saved' because the organized religion itself is in opposition to the true will of 'god' (again, if there is a god).
Maybe this post will **** everyone off, I don't care. My prediction is that the end of humanity will come as a result of organized religion and, if there is a god, noone that practices organized religion will be 'saved' because the organized religion itself is in opposition to the true will of 'god' (again, if there is a god).
12-03-2004, 01:12 PM
#23
Registered User
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: UCIrvine
Posts: 3,312
Car Info: '05 Crystal Grey Metallic WRX Sport Wagon
Originally Posted by Oaf
You, my friend, need to spend some time in a library.
Pay particular attention to books pertaining to the storming/looting of Jerusalem, the 1st & 2nd seiges of Vienna, etc.
Pay particular attention to books pertaining to the storming/looting of Jerusalem, the 1st & 2nd seiges of Vienna, etc.
You, my friend, are obviously very religious. You say that Islamics were to blame for the crusades because they took Jerusalem...but they thought it was their's too. You say the crusaders were right because your Christian...but I'm sure there are some Jewish and Islamic people out there who still say Jerusalem is theirs...and since Judaism is the oldest religion of the three, don't they have the best claim to it?
"In their self-righteousness the crusaders gave little thought to the fact that this same Jerusalem was sacrosanct to Jew and Muslim also." from:
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...47/ai_19308694
Not only that...but the 1st and 2nd Sieges of Vienna?!?! You mean the ones that happened in 1526 and 1683 right? (that's when the Ottomans attacked Vienna...) Those happend AFTER the crusades (1096-1270)...maybe you should go to a library...
12-05-2004, 10:33 PM
#24
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Blue-faced in a red state
Posts: 2,256
Car Info: 04 Silver WRX Wagon
This is some sage advice from a cool guy named Dietrich Bonhoeffer, a German who died due to incaceration by the **** party during WWII...
To paraphrase, you cant judge Christianity (or other religions I suppose) based on Christians. You can only judge the merits based on Christ.
People are flawed. We arent perfect. I aint gonna jam my faith down another's throat, but it is fallacious to look at the actions of others and assume that their faith is wrong. Instead, we should focus on who or what they follow.
Just my .02
To paraphrase, you cant judge Christianity (or other religions I suppose) based on Christians. You can only judge the merits based on Christ.
People are flawed. We arent perfect. I aint gonna jam my faith down another's throat, but it is fallacious to look at the actions of others and assume that their faith is wrong. Instead, we should focus on who or what they follow.
Just my .02
12-06-2004, 09:44 PM
#25
Registered User
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Oakland, CA
Posts: 9,016
Car Info: 2009 wrx & 2000 4runner
Originally Posted by dub2w
This is some sage advice from a cool guy named Dietrich Bonhoeffer, a German who died due to incaceration by the **** party during WWII...
To paraphrase, you cant judge Christianity (or other religions I suppose) based on Christians. You can only judge the merits based on Christ.
People are flawed. We arent perfect. I aint gonna jam my faith down another's throat, but it is fallacious to look at the actions of others and assume that their faith is wrong. Instead, we should focus on who or what they follow.
Just my .02
To paraphrase, you cant judge Christianity (or other religions I suppose) based on Christians. You can only judge the merits based on Christ.
People are flawed. We arent perfect. I aint gonna jam my faith down another's throat, but it is fallacious to look at the actions of others and assume that their faith is wrong. Instead, we should focus on who or what they follow.
Just my .02
agree 100% with that
12-07-2004, 11:42 AM
#29
Registered User
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: UCIrvine
Posts: 3,312
Car Info: '05 Crystal Grey Metallic WRX Sport Wagon
Originally Posted by dub2w
This is some sage advice from a cool guy named Dietrich Bonhoeffer, a German who died due to incaceration by the **** party during WWII...
To paraphrase, you cant judge Christianity (or other religions I suppose) based on Christians. You can only judge the merits based on Christ.
People are flawed. We arent perfect. I aint gonna jam my faith down another's throat, but it is fallacious to look at the actions of others and assume that their faith is wrong. Instead, we should focus on who or what they follow.
Just my .02
To paraphrase, you cant judge Christianity (or other religions I suppose) based on Christians. You can only judge the merits based on Christ.
People are flawed. We arent perfect. I aint gonna jam my faith down another's throat, but it is fallacious to look at the actions of others and assume that their faith is wrong. Instead, we should focus on who or what they follow.
Just my .02
12-07-2004, 02:30 PM
#30
Originally Posted by MVWRX
I like the idea of this, and it has some truth to it. But after thinking about it for a couple days, I have to say I disagree. We judge colleges by the careers/lives of their graduates (and the accomplishments of their profesors). We judge countries by the character of their diplomats. We judge coaches by the actions of their players. Christians are representatives of their religion and therefore are representatvies of Jesus Christ. If they f*** up, it does reflect on the religion and the savior. For the religion and Jesus, it's the responsiblility that comes with the territory of being a major religion or savior. Maybe if more religious people thought this way, instead of ignoring the reflection of their own actions on their religion, people wouldn't do things that would make their religion look bad.
Matthew 7:16-20:
16 By their fruits YOU will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? 17 Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; 18 a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. 19 Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men].
Jesus Christ said that.