dub2w

It is always comforting when you see people engaging in the democratic process. all the while firing of rounds from their kalishnakov rifles.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...ixnewstop.html


So remind me... why did we wage a pre-emptive strike against Iraq? Was it for democracy?

Once we can assure some moderate levels of stability, we need to BRING THE BOYS BACK HOME.

dr3d1zzl3

iTrader: (1)

ahhh maybe now it will start to sink in with mainstream america (the red states)

HOW ****ING COMPLEX AND SEGREGATED THE MIDDLE EASTERN POLITICAL FRONT IS


it aint like the good ole us of a... every mother ****ing tribe and its momma has a completely different view on the same ****ing thing, pride, ego, etc all get in the way of comprimise....

Salty

iTrader: (14)

How does that saying go? You can take the man out of the ghetto but you can never take the ghetto out of the man? I swear... every time I see pictures of a large group of gun-toting morons I often wonder if half of them (at the very, very most) know what the **** is going on? "You're Sunni? You're Sunni, too? Well then, I must be in the right group! Hip Hip Hooray! *3 round burst* Hip Hip Hooray! *3 round burst*."

Seriously though, if the Sunnis didn't blow-off the election like it was destined to fail then we wouldn't even be in this situation. They would of had far more pull in parliment than they do now. We've mentioned this before... you cannot expect to be part of the democratic process if you boycott an election! They ****ed up BADLY by doing that. Alas, the Shiites did give them some leeway for their bad choice. It really seems like the Sunnis are hard-headed. I guess this is what happens when you have a country full of ignoramuses that are still used to the days of Saddam when they had pull.

But what really pisses me off is how hard can it possibly be to come to a truce? If it meant giving these Sunnis a little more power or giving them their own way for the Constitution (which is vital for years and years to come). Then why not do it to avoid civil war?!

Cut sling load. Maybe a civil war will do this country some good? Does anyone else feel this way sometimes? Christ!

MVWRX

iTrader: (1)

I feel like if they have a civil war, then every last one of the 'reasons' we're there is a lost cause or a lie to begin with...

dr3d1zzl3

iTrader: (1)

prob goes back to them never really knowing, understanding, or having such a proccess around before..

Whole tribal "you dont like them so we kill em till they are dead" mentality..

i mean diplomacy and politics are just the psychological/manipulative extension of open warfare..

minus bullets, bombs, tanks, etc.. just words, posturing and other subtlties (spellorzingz r0xz)

Salty

iTrader: (14)

Not necessarily. Whoever wins will have the "pride" everyone was complaining about that a US occupation could not provide. Not arguing with you though... a civil war would be a bad thing and we all know it. It's just frustrating, you know?

And it wouldn't be a "lie" to begin with because we gave them every opportunity only to have them **** on it. We’ve lived up to our part of the bargain time and time again. We revamped everything in that country from small businesses, farming, employment and schools to more paved roads and opportunity they have ever seen. Then they decide to play pickle with the election - one of the very roots of Democracy? Then they want a "do-over" and a reach around on every qualm thereafter? Wtf? Who does that?!

What I’m trying to say is that it seems like we're feeing broccoli to a bunch of babies these days. Half of them are smart enough to eat because it'll make them stronger and the other half spit it out because of ignorance and greed. It's getting very old.

MVWRX

iTrader: (1)

...I was refering to other 'reasons' to be there as lies...the democracy reason is what I was calling the lost cause...


Funny thing to say...broccoli...because if our pres is like his dad, you'd have a hard time feeding him any broccoli either hahahaha

Salty

iTrader: (14)

Never really knowing what? The workings of Democracy? Please, Dre. Don't play dumb.

Are you telling me the Association of Muslim Scholars couldn't grasp the possible repercussions of their actions or never once cracked a book on Democracy? You do realize influential Sunnis formed this group after the fall of Saddam, right? There's no two ways about it... they played possum with the election and knew it! Now they're still wanting what they once had under Saddam.

Salty

iTrader: (14)

That’s just the thing. If a civil war broke out the only people that would dwell on the WMD issue would be the Dems and the Left in the US. You think they care about that? You think members of Parliament are bickering like a bunch of housewives about the lack of WMDs? Haha. Whatever dude.

There’s probably a day that doesn’t go by that Shiites and Kurds do a jump heal kick because Saddam is gone. Here’s the thing… they never cared how or why he got oust so why should you? He could have been put away for a moving violation and they would have be fine with it. It's all anti-Bush drivel.

And it’s pretty obvious Sunnis are doing fine too if they can only get past these minor discrepancies. They have proven since their lack of participation during the election that they want to be a part of the new political process. If they didn't then there wouldn't be the possibility of civil war because of the Federal controls they don't agree with. Even the younger radicals would rather move on to praising al Sadr than dwell on Saddam and the WMD “lie.” Hell, they moved on from Saddam like a bad habit. It’s weak this late in the game, bro. Face it.

As for the Democracy being a "lost cause" it never would have been had the Sunnis decided to play ball. This is the exact problem in regard to how they cannot come to a truce on the Constitution and how civil war is at stake.

1reguL8NSTi

I honestly think they all have no earthly clue what the hell is going on in Iraq (and def. not the rest of the world). They pretty much follow the first dumb-*** into a riot and see what happens. Mogadishu anyone.

MVWRX

iTrader: (1)

Now, all of the sudden, you take the POV of the rest of the world and Iraq? That's what's funny...you openly admit the US has almost nothing to gain from this, and still insist it was the correct course of action. Level with yourself; we should never have gone. And that fact IS worth discussing, because it was a huge mistake made by a horribly inadiquate government.


Of course the Brits aren't discussing WMDs...they never said or agreed with us that Iraq had any...of course the Shiites and Kurds are glad Saddam is gone...but that's just saying the ends jusify the means, which is simply not true in this case; we f***ed up and are simply lucky that part of the population of one of the countries involved in our international clusterf*** got what they always wanted. Everyone else, including your peers in the military, have paid dearly for something I doubt anyone would have agreed to doing if the admin had been honest about the war from the beginning...

Seriously...if Bush had come out and said: "The Shiites and Kurds in Iraq haven't asked for our help, but they need it. Let's go kick Saddam's a$$ for them." Would you have wanted in on the war? Be honest. Because that's what you're using to justify the war now (after having exhausted the long list of half-truths and false theories the admin has fed you as excuses for this war...)

Salty

iTrader: (14)

When did I ever say this? Everyone here can vouch for my reasons on going to Iraq. I've always said that having instilled a Western-influenced democracy in that region is huge! We need liberals in that area! We also bettered the overall society. Children couldn't even read about Saddam without praise or the Western world without distain and hate. Is that what you want?

I even mentioned how getting a little oil on our hands isn't necessarily a bad thing given what I mentioned in the previous paragraph above. But I was proven wrong by the Iraqi Parliament! Turns out oil control is a major bickering point and one of the main reasons why a Constitution hasn't been approved yet. If anything, we'll just end-up buying oil from Iraq at a similar cheap-*** rate we did when Saddam was in control.


Are you ****ING KIDDING ME!!! Saddam had Fedayeen Saddam bury thousands of families in the desert sand, chop off limbs and throw bound Shiites and Kurds off a 3 story buildings if they were conspiring against him! Are you really this dumb or just purely anti-Bush? Which is it?

dr3d1zzl3

iTrader: (1)

im talking about the man in the streets who associates his world view around which ever tribe or sect he is a part of.

The leaders can know all they want, it comes down to their support base, with out which they would be powerless and meaningless.

They have to feed their supportbase..

make a bit more sense?

Salty

iTrader: (14)

Yes, thank you.

MVWRX

iTrader: (1)

Those attrocities make me mad too, but they don't give the US the right or privilige to invade. Like I've said before, if we went to Iraq purely to save it's citizens from it's leader, then there are an a$$ load of other places we should've gone first and still should go to. But that's NOT what we should do. IF a place asks for help, then we should help them. But until they do, we're just being patronizing bullies.


I'm not dumb, you just misunderstood the thrust of my argument. Hopefully you can at least understand my point now, even if you don't agree with it.