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Illegals are a fiscal drain.

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Old 08-26-2004, 12:36 PM
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Illegals are a fiscal drain.

Saw this in the Bee this morning & thought, " Really!? No shiznit."

WASHINGTON - Illegal immigrants use billions of dollars more in federal services than they pay in federal taxes, a study released Wednesday says.
The result in 2002 was a $10.4 billion net drain on the federal treasury, according to the study conducted by a think tank that wants to curtail immigration levels. Granting illegal immigrants legal status will increase the costs, the analysts contend.
Here's the story

If Kerry is elected, it will only get worse.

John Kerry strongly supports responsible reform of our immigration laws that honors our tradition as a nation of immigrants and makes America stronger. He will offer a reform bill in his first 100 days that allows (illegal)immigrants to earn legalization, encourages family reunification, and strengthens our border protections. By reforming our immigration laws, John Kerry will honor America's promise and strengthen America's economy and security.
I added the "illegal" in the above quote.
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Old 08-26-2004, 01:23 PM
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By and large, illegals clean toilets, pick food and prepare your meals in restaurants. If we were successful in deporting all of these illegals, what would the impact be on our economy? I think we need to be honest with ourselves about who is willing to work and at what cost. Once we honestly take a look at this, it is time to devise immigration reform. However, I don't think Kerry will do that, he will likely just effect "reform" without looking at the real situation.

If the illegals currently working in this country paid their taxes, their employers would also have to pay some taxes. This highlights two things: 1) it is as much the fault of the employer as it is the employee and 2) consumers are paying artificially low prices OR employers are reaping artificially high profits off the backs of illegal labor. Do you think those guys are getting minimum wage or their employers are paying disability insurance?
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Old 08-26-2004, 01:31 PM
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wait, so when illegals buy used cars for their businesses, pay for gas for said cars, and pick up groceries from the local market on their way home, they dont have to pay tax? wow, I had no idea?

if you right in assuming that illegals are more of a burden than a benefit, you can be sure that our govt would have cracked down a long time ago... but hey, we decided that demarcated minorities are necessary for our society to function and that is why they are here
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Old 08-26-2004, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by dub2w
if you're right in assuming that illegals are more of a burden than a benefit, you can be sure that our govt would have cracked down a long time ago
This has to be the funniest thing I’ve read all week and it was brought to me by, dub2w... go figure. + Name:  lol.gif
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Old 08-26-2004, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by dub2w
wait, so when illegals buy used cars for their businesses, pay for gas for said cars, and pick up groceries from the local market on their way home, they dont have to pay tax? wow, I had no idea?
INCOME TAX! Who gives a crap about the peanuts they pay in SALES tax! You think illegal aliens are buying $20k cars? How much do you think sales tax on beans and tortillas runs? Now, how much do the counties pay for medical care on these people? You think the $100 a year these people pay in sales tax would cover a night in the hospital?
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Old 08-26-2004, 02:02 PM
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As Salty aptly quoted...

Originally Posted by dub2w
if you right in assuming that illegals are more of a burden than a benefit, you can be sure that our govt would have cracked down a long time ago... but hey, we decided that demarcated minorities are necessary for our society to function and that is why they are here
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Old 08-26-2004, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by bone324
INCOME TAX! Who gives a crap about the peanuts they pay in SALES tax! You think illegal aliens are buying $20k cars? How much do you think sales tax on beans and tortillas runs? Now, how much do the counties pay for medical care on these people? You think the $100 a year these people pay in sales tax would cover a night in the hospital?

dont know many illegals who make much more then 25g a year... so their income tax would be peanuts (if they did work over the table isntead of udner)

this is a stupid *** debate with out the labor that illegals offer our society would collapse, i dont see any of your asses wanting to go pick strawberries or artichokes...

You enjoy the jobs that you have and can get because there are those who will fight for the ****ty jobs below you.

Im all for allowing them to naturalize, so long as the proccess is controled in some manner or form.

IE if you work here for X years you are allowed to naturalize, or progress to teh next step.
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Old 08-26-2004, 09:25 PM
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dr3:

First off, please slow down when typing...you make a lot of typos.

Originally Posted by dr3d1zzl3
this is a stupid *** debate with out the labor that illegals offer our society would collapse, i dont see any of your asses wanting to go pick strawberries or artichokes...
Dude, you give illegals waaay too much credit. If that were true, Vincente Fox would pull all the illegals back to Mexico and wait for the US to collapse.

Originally Posted by dr3d1zzl3
You enjoy the jobs that you have and can get because there are those who will fight for the ****ty jobs below you.
This is perhaps the most asinine statement you have ever posted. I have no idea what you do for a living, but I have my skills to thank for my job.
I know several older whitefolks that, when in school, picked crops during their vacations or after school. They were from poor families and needed to contribute.

Originally Posted by dr3d1zzl3
Im all for allowing them to naturalize, so long as the proccess is controled in some manner or form.
Finally, a semi-intelligent statement. This may surprise you, but there is a legal process that allows foreigners not only to live in the USA, but to actually become...get ready...citizens!
My family followed this process when they came to America.

Last edited by FW Motorsports; 08-26-2004 at 09:30 PM.
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Old 08-26-2004, 10:38 PM
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i make typoes because i can
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Old 08-26-2004, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Oaf
dr3:

First off, please slow down when typing...you make a lot of typos.



Dude, you give illegals waaay too much credit. If that were true, Vincente Fox would pull all the illegals back to Mexico and wait for the US to collapse.



This is perhaps the most asinine statement you have ever posted. I have no idea what you do for a living, but I have my skills to thank for my job.
I know several older whitefolks that, when in school, picked crops during their vacations or after school. They were from poor families and needed to contribute.



Finally, a semi-intelligent statement. This may surprise you, but there is a legal process that allows foreigners not only to live in the USA, but to actually become...get ready...citizens!
My family followed this process when they came to America.

1. http://www.rand.org/publications/MR/MR854/

KEY FINDINGS

Our major conclusions can be summarized as follows. Although the characteristics of immigrants have changed over the past three decades, the state's economy continues to benefit from immigration. However, the magnitude of current flows--and the flows' disproportionate share of poorly educated immigrants--combined with ongoing changes in the state's economy has increased the costs of immigration to the state's public sector and to some native-born workers. The state faces a growing challenge as it attempts to integrate these new immigrants while also trying to promote the welfare of the state and all its residents.

The number of immigrants entering the state has been increasing at unprecedented rates: More immigrants--1.8 million--entered the state during the 1970s than in all prior decades together. And that number nearly doubled again, to 3.5 million, during the 1980s. Immigrants have continued to come at these high rates during the 1990s despite a recession that was the state's most severe since the Great Depression. As a result, immigrants now constitute in excess of one-quarter of California's residents and workers and are now responsible for more than half of the state's population and labor force growth.

The profile of these recent immigrants is more diverse ethnically, socio-demographically, and economically than in the past. California has more of more different types of immigrants than ever before. Also its immigrants differ significantly from those in the rest of the country. Today, about 50 percent of California's foreign-born residents are from Mexico or Central America and another 33 percent are from Asia, compared with 23 and 21 percent, respectively, in the rest of the country. California's immigrants are also much more likely to be illegal, newly legalized, or refugees than are immigrants elsewhere in the country. And although immigrants at all levels of education have entered the state, there has been a steady decline in the average educational level of immigrants relative to native-born workers--a pattern that is not found in the rest of the country.

To a much greater extent than in the past, the rate at which immigrants and their children succeed economically and socially depends directly on their education. Highly educated immigrants--about half of the state's total--reach economic parity with native-born residents within their lifetimes. The other half--those with extremely low levels of education who are primarily from Mexico and Central America--command low earnings and make little economic progress in their lifetimes. This raises serious concerns about whether and, if so, when their children will reach parity with other groups.

California's employers, and its economy more generally, have been the primary beneficiaries of this recent immigration. To employers, immigrants are cheaper but equally as productive as native-born workers across all levels of education from high school dropouts to college graduates. This comparative labor cost advantage helped the state's economy grow more rapidly than that of the rest of the nation from 1960 to 1990. Although the state suffered a long and deep recession from 1990 to 1994, immigration has continued unabated. Currently, California's employment growth is once again exceeding that of the rest of the nation.


Looking to the future, long-term economic and immigration trends appear to be headed in opposite directions. The state's economy, for example, has been changing in several ways--albeit mostly independently of immigration. First, the rate of employment growth began declining from its 1970 peak even before the employment losses of the early 1990s and, while now recovering, is not projected to regain the rapid pace of the 1970-1990 period. Second, consistent with the shift in the state's economy away from manufacturing and toward higher-skill service and technology industries, employers have been placing a higher premium on a highly educated workforce. Eighty-five percent of the new jobs added to the state's economy between 1970 and 1990 were filled by workers with at least some postsecondary training. Third, there has been an increasing divergence between the economic fortunes of California's well-educated workers and the less educated, who now have to compete for fewer low-paying jobs and face the prospects of little career earnings growth.

PS i know all about the legal proccess of becoming a citizen my mother did it. As well as other family mem's.
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Old 08-27-2004, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Salty
This has to be the funniest thing I’ve read all week and it was brought to me by, dub2w... go figure. +

To clarify, do you guys lay claim to the idea that without illegal workers California would be better off? In that scenario, fill me in on who will be working the most menial of jobs.

Last I checked, the Irish and Chinese have advanced up the socio-economic ladder and African-Americans have been emancipated. So where do we import the new labor source?
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Old 08-27-2004, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by dub2w
To clarify, do you guys lay claim to the idea that without illegal workers California would be better off? In that scenario, fill me in on who will be working the most menial of jobs.
You use the term "illegal workers" so loosely... The bottom line is that they're illegal

I don't think it would be better off... my Mother would need to find someone else to mow her grass and I’d probably pay more for a salad than a lobster dinner.

However, If it means I have to pay more for some strawberries or lettuce I’d rather grow more of my own produce in my garden (i already have lemons, tomatoes and cucumbers), swing by my Mother's house to mow he grass and wipe the toilet seat off when I **** on it! What's the big deal here?

Why is it so hard for illegal immigrants to gain citizenship to be here legally? Have them put on a uniform for Uncle Sam after they get a green card -or- start by taking appropriate measures for a green card and citizenship after they successfully cross the border.
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Old 08-27-2004, 10:06 AM
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To be honest, it might be difficult because of all the BS beaurocracy (sp?) that they encounter when they come here.

We need some radical and true reform in the name of immigration (especially from Latin America), bridging the gap between the extreme US isolationists and the "give CA back to the Mexicans" crowd. Again, we can thank the party blow-hards for the stalemate
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Old 08-27-2004, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Salty
Why is it so hard for illegal immigrants to gain citizenship to be here legally?
You just hit the nail on the head. I don't know the answer, but I do know if it were a more straight forward process, we would be much better off. I have wondered since I was a teenager why countries (not only the USA) do not allow people with jobs, who want to do their job, legally reside in their country.
I work with a Swiss banker who has lived in New York for 18 years who was born in Holland. He got his citizenship 2 years ago after a decade of trying. He has been here legally the whole time, but has had to jump through many hoops, and had to endure much hardship in order to work here. This is a man who probably pays more to the US in taxes than most of us gross in a year. He is a managing director of a large bank, and probably grosses well over a million bucks a year, yet it was extremely difficult for him to become a citizen. His comment was that he knows more about US History and government processes than 95% of folks who were born here.
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Old 08-27-2004, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by dub2w
So where do we import the new labor source?
We exported much of our slave labor to China. Where does most of the crap we have on the shelves at Wal Mart of Macy's come from?
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