Assult weapons ban expired?
09-15-2004, 10:21 AM
#76
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Originally Posted by deyes
Not to douse your flame but calling them "crazy guns" is a silly as calling them "assualt rifles" and I think underlines most of the anti gun attitude. That a gun can be bad, when in reality they are inanimate objects. It is people that abuse their rights that are the problem, and you can't stop a free man from doing what he wants, unless you take away his freedom which is the real issue here.
Thanks!
09-15-2004, 11:14 AM
#77
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Freedom is not the real issue...we aren't as 'free' a country as many others in most respects, but we have access to fairly high powered, very accurate, combat style weapons (notice I refrained from calling them crazy guns or assault rifles...)
"Most of the people that study comparative freedom in terms of civil rights and political freedom rank all of these countries higher than the USA:
ANDORRA
AUSTRIA
BELGIUM
CANADA
DENMARK
FINLAND
ICELAND
LIECHTENSTEIN
LUXEMBOURG
MARSHALL
NETHERLANDS
NEW ZEALAND
NORWAY
PORTUGAL
SAN MARINO
SWEDEN
SWITZERLAND
The US is generally listed in the second tier, along with
AUSTRALIA
BARBADOS
BELIZE
COSTA RICA
CZECH REP
ESTONIA
FRANCE
GERMANY
GREECE
HUNGARY
IRELAND
ITALY
JAPAN
LATVIA
LITHUANIA
MALTA
MONACO
PALAU
POLAND
SAINT
SLOVENIA
SPAIN
TUVALU
UNITED KINGDOM
Now those account for the top 40 when considering the 63 or so "free countries" there are 130+ that aren't considered "Free", so we're doing pretty good, but there's room for improvement here, and our ranking has dropped by most accounts over the last 4 years." -psoper from another thread
"Most of the people that study comparative freedom in terms of civil rights and political freedom rank all of these countries higher than the USA:
ANDORRA
AUSTRIA
BELGIUM
CANADA
DENMARK
FINLAND
ICELAND
LIECHTENSTEIN
LUXEMBOURG
MARSHALL
NETHERLANDS
NEW ZEALAND
NORWAY
PORTUGAL
SAN MARINO
SWEDEN
SWITZERLAND
The US is generally listed in the second tier, along with
AUSTRALIA
BARBADOS
BELIZE
COSTA RICA
CZECH REP
ESTONIA
FRANCE
GERMANY
GREECE
HUNGARY
IRELAND
ITALY
JAPAN
LATVIA
LITHUANIA
MALTA
MONACO
PALAU
POLAND
SAINT
SLOVENIA
SPAIN
TUVALU
UNITED KINGDOM
Now those account for the top 40 when considering the 63 or so "free countries" there are 130+ that aren't considered "Free", so we're doing pretty good, but there's room for improvement here, and our ranking has dropped by most accounts over the last 4 years." -psoper from another thread
09-15-2004, 11:20 AM
#78
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Originally Posted by Salty
Actually a shotgun can be even worse. I'm not saying this to be an ***, Chris... i'm saying this to make sure you guys use the proper weapon going around a corner at 0dark30.
Imagine waking up from bed to the sound of an intruder in the middle of the night when you're disoriented from sleep. You get out of bed, grab your extremely long mossberg and attempt to clear the first corner. You slowly pie the corner too close with the long barrel and voila! The bad guy came out of the shadows, grabbed the long barrel and used your own shotgun against you.
If you're going to use a shotgun it would have to be sawed off very close to the chamber with maybe a pistol style grip. I know they're illegal but if that's all you have for home protection you need to improvise to stay safe.
Imagine waking up from bed to the sound of an intruder in the middle of the night when you're disoriented from sleep. You get out of bed, grab your extremely long mossberg and attempt to clear the first corner. You slowly pie the corner too close with the long barrel and voila! The bad guy came out of the shadows, grabbed the long barrel and used your own shotgun against you.
If you're going to use a shotgun it would have to be sawed off very close to the chamber with maybe a pistol style grip. I know they're illegal but if that's all you have for home protection you need to improvise to stay safe.
) and they learned that if no submachine guns are available (or whatever those little auto-9mm thingies they carrie are classified as) i.e. in your own home, that a shotgun is ALWAYS the best option. I'm not trying to be an *** either, but the SJ SWAT team surely knows what they are talking about, and are trained many times by ex-special forces. 
-Chris
maybe its better with proper training only, but they distincly pointed out its pros.
Last edited by bassplayrr; 09-15-2004 at 11:25 AM.
09-15-2004, 11:38 AM
#79
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Originally Posted by MVWRX
but we have access to fairly high powered, very accurate, combat style weapons (notice I refrained from calling them crazy guns or assault rifles...)
When you lay an assault weapon on the counter next to a set of keys of a corvette BOTH are inanimate objects as deyes suggests. The potential of anything lies in the beholder so you're point is invalid.
09-15-2004, 11:51 AM
#80
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Originally Posted by bassplayrr
Hmmm... my brother was training as a SWAT officer when he was a San Jose cop (before his wifey made him quit ) and they learned that if no submachine guns are available (or whatever those little auto-9mm thingies they carrie are classified as) i.e. in your own home, that a shotgun is ALWAYS the best option. I'm not trying to be an *** either, but the SJ SWAT team surely knows what they are talking about, and are trained many times by ex-special forces.
-Chris
maybe its better with proper training only, but they distincly pointed out its pros.
) and they learned that if no submachine guns are available (or whatever those little auto-9mm thingies they carrie are classified as) i.e. in your own home, that a shotgun is ALWAYS the best option. I'm not trying to be an *** either, but the SJ SWAT team surely knows what they are talking about, and are trained many times by ex-special forces. -Chris
maybe its better with proper training only, but they distincly pointed out its pros.
Trust me when I tell you I know what i'm talking about... having experience in the field I've actually schooled my brother on tatical SOP. I can get him on the phone today and he’ll openly admit I have a better understand of the subject… not to mention, subaruguru (another advid gun guru) can vouche for me too.
It's safe to say that a shotgun is an effective choice if you're hiding behind your bed calling the cops without a shred of firearms experience and are a lousy shot. On the other hand, what I’ve suggested above still stands...
If you and I were in the same room i'd have you hold a shotgun and exit your room in a low lighted area. I'd come out of nowhere, grab the weapon from your hand with the "violence of action" and determination to steal your 15k dimond necklace, rape your wife and kill you... you'd be convinced of a pistol instantly... i guarantee it...
Last edited by Salty; 09-15-2004 at 11:59 AM.
09-15-2004, 11:57 AM
#81
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Originally Posted by Salty
It's arguable... i've had this similar debates with my SWAT brother (who agrees with me on this subject) and other members of the SOF community. SOP is different everywhere you go! Sometimes I hated the SOP's given to us from higher (3 guns in the fatal funnel for example) and soemtimes i've praised it.
Trust me when I tell you I know what i'm talking about... having experience in the field I've actually schooled my brother on tatical SOP. I can get him on the phone today and he’ll openly admit I have a better understand of the subject… not to mention, subaruguru (another advid gun guru) can vouche for me too.
It's safe to say that a shotgun is an effective choice if you're hiding behind your bed calling the cops without a shred of firearms experience and are a lousy shot. On the other hand, what I’ve suggested above still stands...
If you and I were in the same room i'd have you hold a shotgun and exit your room in a low lighted area. I'd come out of nowhere, grab the weapon from your hand like I have a pari of ***** (violence of action) and you'd be convinced of a pistol instantly... i guarantee it...
Trust me when I tell you I know what i'm talking about... having experience in the field I've actually schooled my brother on tatical SOP. I can get him on the phone today and he’ll openly admit I have a better understand of the subject… not to mention, subaruguru (another advid gun guru) can vouche for me too.
It's safe to say that a shotgun is an effective choice if you're hiding behind your bed calling the cops without a shred of firearms experience and are a lousy shot. On the other hand, what I’ve suggested above still stands...
If you and I were in the same room i'd have you hold a shotgun and exit your room in a low lighted area. I'd come out of nowhere, grab the weapon from your hand like I have a pari of ***** (violence of action) and you'd be convinced of a pistol instantly... i guarantee it...
-Chris
and it's a debate I'm gonna stay out of as I have NO training.
09-15-2004, 12:11 PM
#82
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so you're saying, Salty, that our freedom is directly proportional to how many inanimate objects we can own? my point is that this thread makes it sound like gun ownership=freedom (or is part or being free), but many countries where guns are not as legal as they are here have MORE true freedoms (politically and socially) than we do...the ability to own a gun has very little to do with actual freedom
09-15-2004, 12:24 PM
#83
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Originally Posted by MVWRX
so you're saying, Salty, that our freedom is directly proportional to how many inanimate objects we can own? my point is that this thread makes it sound like gun ownership=freedom (or is part or being free), but many countries where guns are not as legal as they are here have MORE true freedoms (politically and socially) than we do...the ability to own a gun has very little to do with actual freedom
Several high ranking ex-Soviet gov't types have been quoted as saying that one of the main reasons that the Soviets never invaded the US was due to an armed populace.
But back to my earlier question: Why are you anti-assault rifle?
You have made several statements indicating as such, but haven't given a reason.
09-15-2004, 12:28 PM
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I have given my reason previously, but here...I DON'T TRUST PEOPLE very easily, if at all, and so I don't want them to have things (weather inanimate or not) that are MADE FOR KILLING. Yes, cars kill, but they're not designed to. These weapons are designed to kill.
09-15-2004, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by MVWRX
I have given my reason previously, but here...I DON'T TRUST PEOPLE very easily, if at all, and so I don't want them to have things (weather inanimate or not) that are MADE FOR KILLING. Yes, cars kill, but they're not designed to. These weapons are designed to kill.
It still doesn't matter if they were designed for killing or not! The car and assault rifle are merely hunks of metal until abused.
You can act like Brucelee (Daniel) and shoot an old water heater in the middle of BFE with an AK47 and not kill anything! So once again, your point is flawed and invalid.
If you really didn't trust people then you'd never cross the street in fear of the crazed driver in said Corvette. This is a prime example of nearsighted thinking and nothing more!
Here's the thread: https://www.i-club.com/forums/showth...t=water+heater nobody died either
Last edited by Salty; 09-15-2004 at 12:44 PM.
09-15-2004, 12:45 PM
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...this is hopeless...no matter what, apparently thinking things that are designed to kill are bad because the sole reason that they're designed to kill is 'flawed and invalid'...I suppose you're all for legalizing larger capacity magazines, too, because everyone needs to be able to unload 15 bullets straight into a target at a range and 10 just won't do...
and BTW, way to ask me why I have an aversion to something and then say my answer is invalid...WTF man...nearsighted my ***...what, you getting ready for 'return to LA'!?!? Hahahahaha
and BTW, way to ask me why I have an aversion to something and then say my answer is invalid...WTF man...nearsighted my ***...what, you getting ready for 'return to LA'!?!? Hahahahaha
Last edited by MVWRX; 09-15-2004 at 12:51 PM.
09-15-2004, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Salty
Deyes, you need to come here more often to speak your mind. That quote is the best thing i've read in some time here.
Thanks!
Thanks!
Thank you for giving me my first compliment on i-club. I work in the firearm industry so the topic is of great interest to me. I'm fairly well versed and make it a point to know the oppositions arguments.
09-15-2004, 12:53 PM
#88
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Originally Posted by MVWRX
so you're saying, Salty, that our freedom is directly proportional to how many inanimate objects we can own? my point is that this thread makes it sound like gun ownership=freedom (or is part or being free), but many countries where guns are not as legal as they are here have MORE true freedoms (politically and socially) than we do...the ability to own a gun has very little to do with actual freedom
Last edited by deyes; 09-15-2004 at 01:06 PM.
09-15-2004, 01:02 PM
#89
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Originally Posted by MVWRX
I suppose you're all for legalizing larger capacity magazines, too, because everyone needs to be able to unload 15 bullets straight into a target at a range and 10 just won't do...
If your argument was valid then you could legitimately walk into a butcher shop and tell the butcher to use a pocket knife instead of a cleaver. There's really no need for a larger blade to cut meat when both are capable of cutting a fillet, right? It's just too flashy, intimidating and dangerous after all!
Originally Posted by MVWRX
and BTW, way to ask me why I have an aversion to something and then say my answer is invalid...WTF man...nearsighted my ***...what, you getting ready for 'return to LA'!?!? Hahahahaha
You seem to have the aversion confused with Oaf, not myself...
Originally Posted by Oaf
But back to my earlier question: Why are you anti-assault rifle?
You have made several statements indicating as such, but haven't given a reason.
You have made several statements indicating as such, but haven't given a reason.
09-15-2004, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by MVWRX
...this is hopeless...no matter what, apparently thinking things that are designed to kill are bad because the sole reason that they're designed to kill is 'flawed and invalid'...I suppose you're all for legalizing larger capacity magazines, too, because everyone needs to be able to unload 15 bullets straight into a target at a range and 10 just won't do...
I hear this so many times, "designed to kill". The fact of the matter is that these guns are designed to be rugged reliable accurate and ergonomic with the highest standards in mind, who does not want those features in something that can potentialy help save their life?
Why do police need higher than 10 round magazines, why do they field assault style weapons? We seek parity with those whom we employ to protect us. Why? Because who better to protect us then US?