A quote feature!-------- thanks.
Well, in some cases, I myself say that abortion is ok! – I mean, even from a religious perspective, there are some cases, where abortion is allowed; those cases are mainly those, in which the woman’s life is in danger because of the pregnancy itself; where the price for a life is a life. I double that your friend’s religion tells that abortion is ok in all cases, like “on request”!

Anther reason why we should obtain the solutions from religions, and include them in as articles in the constitution. You see, when they are in the constitution –those person’s hand-written “holy book”- then they will have to follow them!

To fade : To disappear gradually; vanish. www.dictionary.com .
You asked for numbers… here is one of them.
(As it is well known, yearly number of abortion all over the world, approach the number of 50 million.) This was quoted at the link:
http://www.contraception-esc.com/con...the_art_18.htm
I THINK YOU’LL LIKE WHAT YOU’LL READ THERE!! A LOT!!!
I don’t have the yearly number of un-adopted kids, but I don’t think that it will ever be competitive… (maybe you have it!)

“The religious right” … the religious right to do what? Isn’t it a right to pray and preach, and never a right to materialize those religions' own societies.
I’ll try to make it easier for you. You’re saying that “not all religions have the same ideas about abortion”. I can understand that you agree that due to “some of them” abortion should not be allowed. The question here is “does your constitution respect those religions’ attitudes? I don’t think so. When you make the same approach regarding so many compelling issues; abortion, euthanasia, homosexuality,….etc, you will feel how much your constitution is far from most religions in your country.


First, a “new born” is always alive!
And, when somebody decides to end his\her life, I think the right definition of what actually he\she intends to do is to actually “KILL him\herself” –it just can’t be less crystal! –eventually, it is the same as when someone decides to kill others! –to my mind, it is even way more absurd!!!!!!!!!
And, maybe it was not stated latterly, but I think that it was clear in my first post that I think life stats right after the fertilization is accomplished inside the womb.

When you claim to know when something is going to happen, you should be able to master it; (within a month or two!) it is a clue that we just master nothing!

You see, “to have my own creative opinions” is something very much tempting to me. But for me, there should be a background, which I can describe as an interactive mixture of “religion, traditions, and laws”, for my opinions to be productive in away that induces benefits for myself and my society. When any of those three is missing in my background, then my opinions can be really destructive for myself and my society.

 

Political decisions! Hmmmm –
Although some politicians do use the issue for their OWN advantage when they go canvassing within their campaigns, but this, to my mind, does not make the issue a “political” issue . For me, it has always been a extensively-humanitarian issue, where both women, and their babies, are in danger.


When we don’t allow any abortions, there WILL be more un-adopted kids.
But to my mind, for them to live –which would make the burden bigger for a country’s institutions-, is better than to “execute” them!

 

Yeah, you're right...it's better for everyone in a society to bear the burden of a rapist's crime, or a couple's mistake, than for one ball of ~15 cells that has more in common with the larvae of a house fly than a human to be disrupted. You're a whacko by the purist definition of it.
And what you're implying about religion and politics goes against 100+ years of progress in this country. If you want to live in a religious state, buy an island and make your constitution the 10 comandments. But I'm not Christian. Hell, I'm not even religious. And most of the world is not Christian. So don't be trying to get your religious laws mixed up with all the rest of our secular laws.

 

Are you done preaching? If you like killing unborn kids that is your own problem, so don't try to pretend that everyone is as selfish and against life as you.

So, are the children from rape and "mistakes" less worthy in your eyes? The monetary cost to support future contributing members of a society grossly outweighs a morally bankrupt society that approves of killing unborn fetuses, mentally challenged people, and the elderly. Of course, we could just do like the french and stick our old people outside during the next heat wave.... oh how it would be selfish to do otherwise!!!!!!!

 

Helladumb...nothing about abortion is selfish for me...what is selfish is thinking that YOU know better than a raped woman what she needs/wants to do with her pergnancy. Does it hurt you inside when a fetus is aborted? Do you believe that the child that would have been born would somehow improve your life so much that you NEED them to be born? You think that killing in the name of oil/democracy/freedom is allowable, but aborting a fetus (which I don't believe is killing, since in the 1st trimester a fetus is about as developed as a snot rocket and could not sustain life on its own...) is somehow so sacreligious and offensive that NOONE should ever do it, even if it means a better life for the woman AND one less neglected or abused child. That sounds...wait...it's...oh yeah...that's SELFISH.

And, I will reiterate this for you because I think you need to hear it from time to time, religion has no place in the secular world of law, medicine, and human wellfare. It can only possibly cause problems and inefficiencies.

 

That's hellafunny AND helladumb. I'm against life? Not exactly...I'm against overpopulation, especially when many of the children born in situations where the mother wanted an abortion and couldn't get one end up neglected and abused. Yeah, yeah...I know what's next "Weeel I reckin she shidn't uh biin f***in if she didn't want her some childrens." Well, that's true, but if we relied on logic like that for STDs and drug use then there'd be no condoms and no rehab for anyone. It's flawed, because human's are falible and make mistakes...sometimes big ones.

 

I'm with MV on this one: our government, though supposedly "secular" is not distanced from religion at all. Whats on all our money? In god we trust. What does the president take the oath of office on? A BIBLE. What does the president end all of his speaches with? "May god bless america". These things are unheard of in Europe and appauling to them.

And muddar... you still havn't answered the questiion: At what point does life begin in your opinion? Is it when sperm meets egg? Later?
-Jeff

And another question: Why do you believe (please explain in depth) that

 

Why do you doubt that his religion tells him its ok in all cases? Because it goes against your religious beliefs? Thats my main point, not everyone has the same beliefs as you. And I am certainly not arrogant enough to believe that im 100% right and they are wrong.

Wrong. You see there are MANY different religoins in this world. To enforce your beliefs on others is WRONG. How would you like it if someone like my friends religion was the on that the constitution followed? Wouldn't like it much I take it. And thats the key thing I think your missing here.

I'd go re-read that link you posted. If anything it pushes for the right to have abortions more than anything else. And no I don't have the link since I didn't make the statement why would I.

The religious right is a term used for individuals of Christian belief that lean to the conservative side of politics. Usually VERY extreem. It would seem you fall pretty nicely in that catogory. And you are WAY off on what the Constitution is about. The Constitution protects religious freedom, not at all what you are saying. I'd give you a link but www.google.com just died. Well atleast for me.


I would really like to know how a "new born" is always alive. Your point of view is really really not well thought out scientifically. If anything, with your thought process, if its alive right after fertilization then compared to other cells they are as much alive as the new born.

Nothing can be exact about a pregrnancy. They can give estimates of the exact week it will happen. But MANY things can and do change inbetween that time period. So yes we have mastered the art of child bearing pretty damn well. But of course its not 100% exact.

I don't see how your benifiting society by forcing your religion on others. Just like I would not see how it would benifit you if someone forced their religion on you. Its a two way street.

 

If it is arrogance to think that "religions- all religions- value life, protect life, and don't allow anything that might endanger life", then I will say "OK… I might be arrogant!).

Hye… why don't you be specific, and tell about “YOUR FRIEND’S RELIGION”, and tell what does it really tell about Abortion?!!!!!
The name of the religion, and what does it tell about abortion? (HOW does it justify abortion?)

Of course , why would you?!!!!- Since it goes against your believes!!!!!!!!!!!!

Are you used to throw out accusations like those so frequently?! –while you honestly seem to have very deformed perspectives over religions!

And although I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t like it, but religions were not sent to fulfill an “INDIVIDUAL” spiritual thirst only! There were sent to organize the SOCIETY as a whole too. People shouldn’t assist constitutions to make religions shrink into that “INDIVIDUAL” pathetic shape –especially when those "constitutions" prove as much failure as they have proven up till now; dealing with issue like abortion.

“Nothing can be exact about a pregrnancy”… They can give… “estimates”…. of the… “exact”… “week”… it will happen. But …“MANY things”… can and do change inbetween that time period. So …….”yyyyyeeeeesss”…. we have…. “mastered”…. the art of child bearing ………“pretty damn well”……….. “But of course its not 100% exact.”

Those lines were really really, honestly, frankly, the most confused set of words I ever ever ever read.

. A real vivid mixture of “religion, traditions and laws” can make every one happy –even nonbelievers!
No religion forces itself on other religions –it’s either you believe or you don’t. this is one basic natural feature of all religions, as long as people –no matter what they believe in, or don’t believe in- are treating there lives naturally. Due to the social responsibility of a religion towards the society it lives in, it should intervene when people start treating life “unnaturally” by legislating killing; and it should do so for those people’s own sake. Because after all, to live with the feeling that you were somehow suppressed(deprived from a “right” for example), is better than to live with the feeling that you’ve killed someone.
And, no matter what people –like abortionists- try to do to convince themselves that “OK… it’s not killing” it will live with them -at least it will make them live in a dilemma for the rest of there lives (it was killing…. It was not….no … it was … no.. not). And people like you, and instead of helping those women face the fact that it was killing, and help them to lives with it, they try to cozy the whole thing up for them.

Such a dilemma will, most probably, help either demolishing those women lives, or will help turning them into evil-people, who will consider no deterrent to do more extreme unnatural things within their lives. Those women have not thought it out right, and they might have been bewildered by people like you maybe, but when abortion is not legislated at all then, at least, they will feel how serious it is, before they make up their minds!

 

First, Christianity –which is a religion I personally value-, nor any other religion (and I would like to put a lot emphasis on the main three religions) is restricted to such nonessential aspects like those you mentioned.

If religions were not to organize social interaction (the way of living, and the way of dealing with others) then you could hardly find a word, or an equivalent of “reward and punishment” in those religions.

God does not need your religious phrase on your money-papers, the Bible to oath on, nor some religiously phrased words at the end of a political speech. Although I believe they are good to make someone’s spirit closer to God, but he\she has to maintain the main core of a religion he\she follows.

My core-interpretation of a ‘religion’ is “to INTERACT RELIGIOUSLY with the whole atmosphere\environment around” –sounds stupid doesn’t it! I would elaborate a lot about it, but I would rather urge you to think deeply about the way your Government deals with those issues, and to compare that way with what the main core of Christianity dictates. 1-devorse. 2-homesexuality, 3-abortion.4-euthanasia. 5- political & economical issues; like the economic sanctions on a poor country, or the stupid wars against poor weak countries under so very stupid propagandas. Is real Christianity fully alive in your society? Isn’t it only the laws and legislations that are thriving? Didn’t they kill Shiavo USING some legislation, while she could’ve lived if the issue was dealt religiously with?

Most of what was mentioned above can be said about my religion too.

It's after the fertilization is accomplished. (but, I think that I've stated it before)

I think this should happen in a different forum! Don't you think so! –this is a completely different issue, you see.

 

“Yes” it does hurt inside to abort that fetus! Because, you wouldn’t know whether he\she will be a beneficial member of the society or not, as your parents didn’t know the same about you! (it is always like this and you should think of living with it. All fetuses are pro-members of the society, which “can” sustain their good and bad behavior in it, like it “can” sustain yours. And it is not that fetuses’ fault that that woman was raped. When she had been raped and it was over, then we should deal with that criminal situation and its consequences, but, not by allowing the woman to perpetrate another crime! The victim should be helped –God will her and the government should\and –in most cases -is, and the rapist should be rought to justice.) As simple as that.

I don’t know where we are going in this; as I am deeply convinced that it would never be easy to have a reasonable outlet of a discussion between multilateral-cultural- sides. But I think, the key point where we could “approach” a reasonable outlet is to agree to one thing “is the embryo alive or not”. At least, and if you agree that it is, then this will keep you away from straying, and connecting the issue with so my different issues, just because you "tend" not to believe it is alive. (You see, lets save time!).
I think the embryo is alive, and I think I gave some aspects for why I think so.
So why don’t you stop making those hyper-connections of yours, and try to give a logical reason why you think the embryo in not alive. (Your own detailed paper of why you think so. …… … … .(May be just because IT IS VERY SMALL!!!!!!).

 

The embryo in the 1st trimester is only a bundle of undeveloped cells: most the time when a abortion is performed, they have not specalized into anything at all (arms, legs, w/e).

 

HellaDumb, I hope that you die slowly, and suffer infinitely...

 

Can you feel the love tonight!

 

Do you believe war can be justified? Because if you do, then the argument that the fetus is alive is irrelevent. Why can you justify killing sometimes (for political/national gain) but not when it is on a personal level and has the potential to do more good than a war? The hypocrisy that is inherent in religion makes your argument against abortion unintelligible.