kravdra

I want a vid clip of your 2 loops. That sounds awesome

Did the "Bad ***" give you like 10 seconds off the run?

rallycross/ rally sounds/is sooo much more exciting/entertaining to watch than road racing!

MoDrift

iTrader: (1)

That's me. The ContiExtremeContacts don't hold up well in the dirt - at least not the way I drive (that's either fast and smart or sideways and stupid ). The edges of the tire have all but worn completely smooth and there has been some bad chunking. I ran KDWS' on my WRX for two years prior and without going Open Class with rally tires I don't think you can beat them. I was running 16's on my WRX but couldn't use them on my STi with the brembos so I decided to try something new. I don't know why I decided to mess with a good thing. I actually sold my old KWDS' on WRX 16s to another 99 OBS for rallycross. I'm going back to KWDS' before the October event.

[Edit: FWIW another friend with an STi and ContiExtremeContacts is also thinking of dumping them for KWDS @ rallycross since his Contis are trashes as well.]

kravdra

I figure for the rallycross at least at first I'll use the highly worn allseason tires that came with the stock rims when I bought the car. Then when I get more money buy stock wrx rims w/ tires since I hear they're pretty good in the dirt and winter? And finally when those wear out maybe I'll have enough to invest in skilled tires.

I read that KDWS' wear really fast though. Is this not true?

Thanx

MoDrift

iTrader: (1)

Well, compared to the Contis the KDWS hold up really well - at least for heavy rallycross use (and my tires usually get a good beating x2 since my fiance drives my car at each rallycross as well). If I remember correctly Hoche once ran his KWDS' at the track and I couldn't even tell after looking at them.

When it comes down to it though, I guess I can't really say if they wear faster for "general use" since I swap back to summer tires between events. The ratings on tirerack.com seem to feel that the Contis have better tread wear. My current Contis are shot and they probably have 2500 miles and 4 2-driver rallycross events (plus fun runs) on them. They are bolted to a 300HP AWD car though.

I think Hoche runs his KWDS' all the time on his OBS. He recently got a new set but I don't know how many rallycross seasons and track days he had on them.

MoDrift

iTrader: (1)

Oh yeah, and when it comes down to it any ol' tires are fine. It's always fun to go out and play in the dirt. The only thing is with soft sidewalls (like the Contis) will need more pressure (+ ~5 psi) to keep the bead from unseating. Not everyone adds more air to their tires though and "generally" that is fine. I drive like a mad man though, and in my WRX I couldn't keep the stock RE92s on the wheel to save my life (I ran up to 40psi). Once I switched to KWDS the performance difference was night and day though, and I can run at stock psi.

hoche

I don't think anyone was filming my runs in the RX7. It was pretty funny though. I have a hard time driving that car seriously. I'm usually giggling insanely by the end of the run.

Yeah, I run KDWS's all the time. I'd say they wear pretty well. By the time I changed mine, they had about 20K miles on them, but that was 20K miles of Hwy 17 from Santa Cruz every day, plus 2 track days, plus 5 rallycrosses. They were down to about half tread, but the outer blocks had melted a bit, mostly from the track days.

Kostamojen

iTrader: (2)

I had the KYB AGX with Ground Control spring combo. I'm not a big TEIN fan with the horror stories ive seen. If I had money, it would be either DMS 50's or the Cusco Zero-R coilovers. Otherwise anything else wouldnt be enough of an upgrade over the AGX/GC combo which is extremely competitive even for the price and not actually being a real complete coilover system. I could keep up with pretty much everyone just fine, and even saw Brent in his 02 WRX with the same setup consistantly PAX overall 2nd or 3rd in Autocross in ST-X class... Good stuff.

When talking about bushings I tend to think of any non-solid metal suspension component. That includes endlinks, strut tops, anti-lift kits, etc. They exist as a somewhat seperate cadigory than the swaybars/strutbars/springs/struts that everyone includes as the major part of suspension tuning. However I found that the effectiveness of bushings very much augements certain aspects of handling that you might feel after awhile the car is having issues with...

For example, endlinks. Swaybars are effective on their own, but with good aftermarket endlinks (Kartboy/whiteline/etc) they effectively "engage" the swaybars handling effectiveness at a different rate... I found that with the kartboy endlinks I had, the 20mm swaybar would engage at a much smooter rate and wouldnt have sudden "whip" where the cars weight would shift on the swaybar. It basically smoothed out that part of the cars handling.

I also thought at one point the front of my car was too wobbly and too unpredictable, so I went in and urathane front swaybar bushings for the stock 19mm bar, along with STI control arm bushings (basically the same the part that anti-lift kits replace, but with not as stiff of a bushing, and doesnt change the suspension geometry so I wouldnt be pushed into some crazy auto-x class...) and that greatly improved the cars initial turn in... It would just enter a turn much more crisp with a nice movement of the steering wheel.

Then there were the whiteline rear control links I installed most recently... I was upset about how the car was handling at the buttonwillow track day (too much funky oversteer engaging at bad times) and went with these. The bushings, along with the adjustabilty, allowed the cars rear end to punch out in a very interesting, very natural nature. It made the car interestingly easier to let the tail out and keep it out... Very effective at the last autocross, as I was able to sustain a nice drift for a period of time under complete control. I was very surprised how much it affected the car.

Strut bars I disagree with Hoche about, I found each bar, both front and rear to actually do something. Perhaps because they were one of my first mods (freakin cheap group buys and vendor sales back in the day) but soon after installing each one the car did act more like one car, with smoother transitions during freeway driving and better steering input during hard cornering. Every GC model should use them if they are serious about handling, there is enough flex for them to be effective (Just dont waste your money on super expensive name brands)


In terms of "which bushings to replace first" I do think that an apropriate suspension, springs AND struts, should be the first thing after your wheel/tire choice. Then followed by a small swaybar upgrade (just try out OEM rear bars to see what they do, upgrade to the more costly adjustable bars if you want the car to act differently) with good endlinks in the rear and after you get a feel for the car, the front as well. Make sure to include with the swaybars eurathane bushings, as those dont effect ride quality yet improve swaybar effectiveness. Strut bars if you choose to use them, should be around this time frame as well.
Also, when starting suspension upgrades, the best mod for the money is definatly a set of steering rack bushings, every subaru should have those!!! (its just sooo much better)
Then, as money allows, an anti-lift kit or sti front control arm bushing upgrade, followed by trailing arm/control link bushings for the rear (fronts if you have the money, save them for later if not) and sti or adjustable camber strut tops if you hadnt done those with your suspension already... There are a few aftermarket control links/trailing links out there that are adjustable with nice bushings, but if you want you can just replace the stock bushings with the group-n sti bushigns, or even those "energy/noltec/etc." kits and save some money.

Thats just about it in terms of bushings, there are one or two more that apply to drivetrain related items (diff bushings, tranny/engine mounts) that are also useful, but really if you do all this right you can replace every bit of the suspension for not a whole lot of money and still keep the car quite driveable on the street.

hoche

Well, heh, there you go, Kavdra. Two differing views from two different drivers with two different purposes. The main thing is to keep doing research until you figure out what you want, and not just throw any ol' thing on there just because everyone else likes it.

Kostamojen can drive. I haven't seen him autocross, but I've run with him at a track day (although I was in my Miata). Very precise.

You can see, though, that his setup is a lot different from mine, and is for an entirely different purpose. I have a track toy (the Miata), so my OBS is primarily a daily driver, hockey hauler, and rallycrosser. On dirt, you're bouncing over various kinds of surfaces and dealing with ruts, so while the precision of your car's handling is important, it's (arguably) not quite AS important as the degree on tarmac. On a track or particularly when autocrossing, you HAVE to hit those lines EXACTLY right each and every time.

Since he's got a lot stiffer of a suspension and runs primarily on tarmac, that brings out different issues at the edge. I think we both agree on the endlink issue - I don't know if I mentioned that I have Kartboys on my rear swaybar and MRT's on my front (because Kartboy doesn't make fronts) - and I'd have to agree with his statement that they engage at a smoother rate than the rubber OEM ones and impart a bit more predictability to the car's handling.

He runs urethane bushings...I don't. Well, I do, kinda. I have urethane rear swaybar bushings. They trap dirt, and I have to take the damned things off every couple of months and clean and lube them or they squeak like mad. They've already worn the paint off my nice Cusco swaybar. With the amount of dirt driving I do, it'd just be a headache if I changed out all my bushings.

I'm curious about his assessment of the strut tower bars. Kostamojen: did you put them on before or after you changed your suspension? As I mentioned previously, I could feel the rear one a tiny bit under hard cornering, and the front not at all. However, I think I also mentioned that they probably help more for someone running with a stiffer suspension that the OEM one.

In general, I'd agree with Kostamojen's second to the last paragraph, where he details mod order. Most of my comments were around keeping the stock suspension, because I think it's a pretty good dual-purpose suspension (both on and off road). Again, as I mentioned previously, most of the suspensions I've found have been lowering suspensions (like the AGX's), so I've shied away from them.

I'd be interested in trying the steering rack bushings, but since once the GTI's built I'm going to be retiring the OBS from racing, I haven't seen much point.

Oh yeah, he mentions adjustable camber strut tops. Boy oh boy do I wish I had those, especially in the rear! You can do a LOT simply by fiddling with the alignment, and the OBS's adjustment range is somewhat limited, particularly in back.

hoche

By the way, in case you're wondering, here're the suspensions on my three cars:

Subaru OBS daily driver/rallycrosser: stock springs & struts, 20-24mm Cusco adjustable rear swaybar with urethane bushings, OEM front swaybar with MRT endlinks, strut towers bars front and rear.


Mazda Miata track toy:
OEM: unknown shock, 155lbs/in front springs, unknown rear

1st rev: Bilstein HO shocks, Racing Beat lowering springs 226 lbs/in front, unknown rear, bumpstops uncut (I bought the car this way, and was pounding my head against the roof everytime the car hit a bump on the street - it was ramming into the bumpstops.)

2nd rev: Koni Sport shocks, adjustable. Ground Control perches. Eibach springs, 375lbs/in front, 275lbs/in rear. Bumpstops cut down. Racing Beat swaybars, tubular front and solid rear (unknown rate). Car handles great on street. Slightly bumpy ride, noticeable on cement-block freeways.

3rd rev: Same as 2, but with spring change: 475 front, 350 rear. Car handles nicely, but I think think the front shocks can't quite handle the front spring rate. Front end sometimes feels squidgy on exit. Need to get shocks revalved. 15" wheels with wider offset a definite improvement. Hope my bearings last!

4th rev: (On order) Spec Miata suspension. 700 front, 525 rear, Bilstein HD shocks. Might be too much for street driving.


'85 VW GTI rallycar: Bilstein struts, custom valved by Guy Light. OEM springs on stock perches for now, maybe Eibachs or Shines on GC later. No front swaybar. OEM rear swaybar.

scoobsport98

iTrader: (5)

Kostamojen, thanks a lot for the rundown... I also seemed to notice an improvement after I intsalled my front strut bar- especially on the high-speed freeway turns. I've seen those STi control arm bushings for like $80- maybe a good alternative for the more spendy ALK.

I just installed rear Kartboy end links yesterday- I was gonna wait until I got a larger swaybr, but I said, what the hell... Even with the puny 13mm stock swaybar, I noticed quite the difference- mostly at the end of turns- it seems like the rear of the car is more active, like it helps push the car around the end of the turn.

Kostamojen

iTrader: (2)

LOL! Kartboy endlinks with the 13mm bar, thats funny Kinda cool, but mostly funny.

Kostamojen

iTrader: (2)

The strut bars were like my 2nd and 3rd mods, after the shifter. I had them even without a rear swaybar, they did make a bit of a noticable difference, I really didnt expect it... I only bought them because of the price (~$40 each) at the time.

The AGX's I kept very close to stock height, maybe 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch lower... I had to keep them relativly high because of the 225 tires. I dont know if I would use them for rally's, i'd rather go with some V5 struts or GR2's for that.

The steering rack bushings are worth it for every day driving most of all. The wheel just snaps back into position coming out of corners, which is awesome, and you just get a better feel for the car all around. Another very surprizing mod, 100% worth the $30.

kravdra

Wow, so much input/help :banana:

can't express my gratitute enough, this is soooo awesome. I shall look into some of you guys' suggestions, and see if I can't make my car better.

I want the DMSs since they seem highly rated, but don't have the money right now, but I was still wondering what the difference between the 40 and 50s are as well as the difference between street, rally tarmac, and rally dirt (or whatever). the 40s v 50s is travel length? or something else? I tried searching, but to no avail, google is getting worse and worse And I'm assuming the difference in the three purposes is simply the springs? namely spring rates? I don't really know why it matters since as I stated earlier, I'm poor, but I'm still inquisitive.

Kost: what strut bars did you get? the sti replicas from ebay?
and the steering bushing is this it --> "Power Steering Rack Bushing Kit for Impreza, Legacy and Forester. Polyurethane bushing kit replaces the stock soft rubber bushings for quicker steering response."

And a question about the steering bushing. It says it provides for quicker response. But as I've stated earlier I'm a kind of jerky driver (I wish I knew a way to practice not being, but I honestly can't tell I am : ( ), so mayber the rubber one damps that a bit? do you think even with my jerkiness that I'd like/ notice an improvement with it? (hope that made sense)

Hoche: now you have me worried about my RSB squeeking ; ) I got the whiteline 18-22 adjustable w/ heavy duty mounts and endlinks, which I believe came with urethane bushings. I've had it for ~3 months now (although only 600ish miles and haven't had a problem yet, but it sounds like a pain.

Also, you recommended an ALK, but if I understand correctly, that would bump me (us) into modified class since it changes suspension geometry right? but you autocross, so what class are you in? or do you have other mods also that make you in SM? I'd like to stay in STS, not because I expect to win, but because its fun to be competitive, and in SM I'm sure I'll get blown away, although once I do my STI motor swap, I'll be in SM ; ) (I wish I could afford it anyways)

Thanks

Kostamojen

iTrader: (2)

The DMS 50 vs. 40 has to do with the actual diameter of the strut. The 50's are 50mm wide, while the 40's are 40mm wide. The diameter of the strut actually makes the strut bette because of the larger surface area. The DMS 40's arent as popular because alot of people have had bouncing problems with them, while the 50's everyone who has them cant say enough positive things about them. They cost alot though, over 3k.

The strut bars I got, one was from a group buy from about 3 years ago, and another was from a vendor on the clubs. It just kinda poped up, so I got them. They are generic brand ones yes.

The steering rack bushings might actually help you improve your driving, that along with a track day or two

Yes the Whiteline/etc. anti-lift kits bump you into the modified class. But if you arent really serious about autrocrossing, and are not competitive in terms of times, most people dont even care unless you are running a crazy huge engine (then you need to be in SM for sure)

kravdra

OK, I'm now convinced I want the steering bushing :banana: but a couple questions.

How hard is it too replace (I'd assume fairly simple, but thought I should check)?

and Which should I get? I figure I'll get whiteline because a) I have a whiteline RSB and stuff, and b) In another forum people were saying they fit great while others didn't. However, which one? http://www.subaruwrxparts.com/gc8-suspension.html has it, but theres the KSR200 and KSR202. one with a width of 30mm and one with 35mm. Where do I measure it? or which is it?

Makes sence about the DMS', thanx

Thanx a bunch!