icefire

STI and EVOs are rally cars. Forget the muscle, when you got WRC action.

PyroManiac

That has to be the best response I have seen in this thread.



STi and EVO are by no means meant for the Drag Strip, which is, IMO, where "muscle cars" shine.

WRX Rush

iTrader: (7)

I have heard STi's been called muscle cars for their low exhaust tone and larger engines (in japanese automotive standpoint) So in my opinion they are Japanese muscle cars, American muscle cars have about 300 more cubic inches and about 1500 more pounds to them

Rush

gpatmac

iTrader: (3)

You know, I don't disagree with the Impreza pedigree being firmly rooted in rally, I think it's laughable how everyone is so vehement that it doesn't belong on the drag strip. Is it because drag racing is a less skilled, less pure form of racing that rally or road racing? Is it because of the disdain the WRX enthusiasts have for anything without twisties?

You know, if some guy decided to start competing in the Tour de France on a mountain bike and was respectably competitive, would you say that mountain bikes shouldn't be in road racing because they weren't designed for that?

PyroManiac

I say that my STi doesn't touch the drag strip because 1) I cry for my tranny 2) AWD launchs own me in level of difficulty.

gpatmac

iTrader: (3)

Please don't get me wrong. I think that if some private individual drag races their street car, they are taking a potentially huge risk. Of course, the same could be said about virtually every other form of racing. The car WASN'T designed for drag racing...but if that's what the owner wants to do, he'll find that he will be bettering the times/traps for the majority of street cars that are at the dragstrip. Instant ego boost.

I don't fault anyone who doesn't drag race. I especially don't if they choose not to race at all. However, the car is an engine on a chassis covered by a body. It's a car. If someone wants to race it in rock climbing competition, so be it.

I'm not a smart guy, but I get a real kick out of how I get instant feedback out of the work I've put into it. I've had the UTEC for 2 years now; I was on the waiting list when it was first released. It's like a rubik's cube for me. Anyhow, along with the UTEC, I built my 123 cubic inch power plant into a little screamer that makes HOTRODs nervous when I line up against them.

PyroManiac

And by no means, gpatmac, am I attempting to flame you. I am merely suggesting that the Impreza Line, and almost any Subaru, with the exception of that crazy Austrailian who managed to convert his WRX into RWD, is not meant to drag race.

Yet people still do it.

That's what's great about America.

You can do that if your heart is set on dragging an AWD beast. Personally, I think that someone who buys an Impreza to drag it should be beaten, but that's just my humble opinion.

Personally, I never have and never will drag race my STi. If I had wanted a drag car, I would have gotten a Cobra, or a Corvette if I could find the money.


This whole discussion seems to be getting a little OT though, but, based on the definitions, I would most definetely say the STi is not a muscle car, mostly because it isn't designed for drag racing.

gpatmac

iTrader: (3)

You and I are speaking the same language, but of a different perspective.

My belief is, 1) a WRX is a fairly inexpensive car that is moderately inexpensive to make quite a bit faster. 2) I'm the type of guy who enjoys all things CAR, but since I bought the car in Hawaii and there's only one track on Oahu, drag racing seemed to be so much more accessible and inexpensive. It was so frustrating to me that the AutoX's and track days were no more frequent than once a month, so I went to what was available. 3) I'm also the type of guy who can't help but be perverse, so that the lure of beating Cobras and Camaros with half the cylinders and something that's not domestic is just too hard to pass up.

My goal/wish/dream is to never get caught up in drag racing again because I'm too busy road racing. I sort of erred in buying the WRX because it's just too expensive a platform for a beginner race car driver to risk tearing up or worse. That's why I bought an '01 RS with the intent of swapping either my old 2.0 block or my in-use 257 block into it.

Edit: yeah, sorry. I am taking this wayyyy off topic, but at least I started off with the right intent.

BTW, if the type of racing that the platform was designed for is any indicator, I believe I can show where most muscle cars have been successfully used in many different modes of racing....fwiw.

gdogg

iTrader: (38)

having being raised on muscle cars and owning a mustang for 5 years... i say no.
excerpt from MuscleCarClub to that is an old school definition. but so is the term musclecar. AWD cars like the STi and EVO present us with a whole new class altogether. our cars are multidimensional. personally i wouldn't pin my car in just one category. i'm wondering... have we ever considered the porsche as a musclecar?




aloha from the summit of *-^-Mauna Kea-^-*

Wingless Wonder

iTrader: (7)

Muscle cars were not designed for drag racing. A few 60's factory cars were modified for NHRA competition but all were originally designed for standard passenger car duty.

The Impreza has a proud history of international rallying but at the WRC level of competition, those vehicles are far different animals from the cars you can buy off the production line, including the J-spec models.

Mildly modified, the WRX and STi do very well at the drag strip against cars with similar amounts of money invested. The big advantage of AWD is at standing starts, although I've also noticed that an AWD vehicle is much easier to maintain in a near perfect straight line while accelerating down a drag strip compared with many minute steering corrections in both FWD and RWD vehicles. At mild mod levels, the changes do not hamper performance as far as handling goes at road courses, either.

My personal preference are road courses but I have very little track time to date. I've found drag racing at a sanctioned drag strip to be a pleasant diversion but I don't do it very often for the sake of preserving my car for the daily commute to work.

Subaru makes vehicles that do almost everything better than conventional FWD/RWD, and at an affordable price. I think that this club can accomodate folks with different competitive interests as long as they don't impose themselves on the rest of us. I don't think anyone here has done that.
I don't think we consider sports cars like the 911, or other makes like Ferrari, Lotus, or Lamborghini to be muscle cars. The cost and drivetrain layout don't fit the criteria. I do recall, however, when the 928 was introduced one magazine referred to it as a (paraphrasing) "high-dollar German Camaro Z-28" because it was front-engine/rear drive with a long hood line like a Camaro.

--
0==WW==0
"…axles of evil…" - george w. bush

gpatmac

iTrader: (3)

I believe that this is obviously a very subjective discussion, however you can't deny the many parallels between the WRX/WRX STi and a muscle car.

gdogg

iTrader: (38)

that pretty much makes it very difficult to agree. i believe in the parallels between the 2 in terms of performance... but i think we all can agree that there is no parallel between their heritage - - i dunno maybe i'm getting too deep into a simple question.






aloha from the summit of *-^-Mauna Kea-^-*

gpatmac

iTrader: (3)

Performance and heritage are only two factors. How about manufacturer's motivation and urge to be innovative and for what reasons? How about the general population's disdain or lack of understanding? You're old enough to remember how the muscle cars around town were pretty much an instant 'freak flag' to the more conservative, run-of-the-mill folks about town.

Kevin M

iTrader: (12)

While I certainly wouldn't say STi=SVT, I think the STi qualifies as a "muscle car" under simple definitions; i.e., stupid fast, and not expensive. To me, the best fit for this definition is the SRT4- if I wanted a daily driver street king, that's what I'd pick for the money, over the current mustangs. Naturally, "cheap" means a lot of things, but in terms for performance-to-dollar ratio, the STi and Evo rank at or near the top. it's a "muscle car" in the exact same way a Chevelle SS or Camaro or Mustang GT was. They were fast, small, and cheap compared to the cars next to them on the showroom. And of course, compared to those other cars, they also turned and stopped better. It wasn't entirely about straight line speed.

gpatmac

iTrader: (3)

Who were the Yenko's (ie. the SVT) for Ford, Pontiac, Chrysler, Dodge...back in the late 60's/early 70's? Was Yenko the only Chevy AM tuner back in the day?

Hot rods aren't my specialty.