DSM modifying mentality?
02-18-2004, 01:44 PM
#1
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DSM modifying mentality?
I sold my lightly modified 1G AWD DSM about a year ago, and I'm looking to possibly get a WRX this summer. In looking through this site I'm finding the approach to modifying Rex's seems quite different from a DSM. Sure, up pipe, down pipe, exhaust upgrades are the same, but from there the paths seem very different. For example, on a 1G DSM a very effective and super cheap upgrade path would be hack open the air box, K&N (or knockoff) filter, boost gauge, manual boost controller, and for about $100 you can safely add a good 50 HP (155 average to 205 average wheel HP according to many runs with my G-TECH pro). You can also make a trip to home depot, pick up some ABS pipe, and open up the intake side of things for almost nothing. From there you'd move on to the exhaust parts, maybe some porting work, upgrade or just re-wire the fuel pump to make sure it keeps up, etc. It's not until you get into upgrading the turbo and/or injectors that you need to break out an AFC.
I seems like WRX owners start with a new computer (flash the stock module, add a UTEC, whatever), then go from there.
Are there any people modifying the WRX with a more "DSM mentality" approach?
I seems like WRX owners start with a new computer (flash the stock module, add a UTEC, whatever), then go from there.
Are there any people modifying the WRX with a more "DSM mentality" approach?
02-18-2004, 06:51 PM
#2
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DSMs are easier to mod for tons of power. What works on DSMs and other imports doesn't always apply to the EJ20 engine.
For example, using an MBC or EBC to crank the boost way up isn't safe with the stock TD04 turbo, and even worse if engine management hasn't been implemented.
Intake mods don't do much of anything except skew the MAF signal. Generally not needed unless the upgrades require a big front-mount intercooler.
If I really wanted to make big power, I'd have gotten either an EVO or a used Supra. I bought a WRX because I like Subarus.
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0==WW==0
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For example, using an MBC or EBC to crank the boost way up isn't safe with the stock TD04 turbo, and even worse if engine management hasn't been implemented.
Intake mods don't do much of anything except skew the MAF signal. Generally not needed unless the upgrades require a big front-mount intercooler.
If I really wanted to make big power, I'd have gotten either an EVO or a used Supra. I bought a WRX because I like Subarus.
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"…axles of evil…" - george w. bush
02-19-2004, 05:44 AM
#3
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Originally posted by Wingless Wonder
DSMs are easier to mod for tons of power. What works on DSMs and other imports doesn't always apply to the EJ20 engine.
DSMs are easier to mod for tons of power. What works on DSMs and other imports doesn't always apply to the EJ20 engine.
For example, using an MBC or EBC to crank the boost way up isn't safe with the stock TD04 turbo, and even worse if engine management hasn't been implemented.
Intake mods don't do much of anything except skew the MAF signal. Generally not needed unless the upgrades require a big front-mount intercooler.
If I really wanted to make big power, I'd have gotten either an EVO or a used Supra. I bought a WRX because I like Subarus.
I understand the need for computer re-flash/utec/whatever if you get into serious mods, but I still don't understand why you need to jump into that if you just want to bump up the boost a couple psi along with some minor exhaust improvements. Everyone keep saying you need to, so maybe you do. Or maybe everyone keeps saying you need to so nobody questions it?
02-19-2004, 09:37 AM
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All cars aren't the same. Just because the WRX has a turbo and so do the 1/2g eclipses do, that doesn't mean you should modify them the same.
The MBC just doesn't work on the WRX the same as it does on the DSM - you can do it safely, but it's not the best way to go. Besides, you'll get bigger gains by getting the reflash done than without - I mean, you can get around 230hp at the wheels with turbo back exhaust and a computer reflash. So about $1500 in mods and you're pushing 60 or 70hp more at the wheels than stock. Not too shabby.
The MBC just doesn't work on the WRX the same as it does on the DSM - you can do it safely, but it's not the best way to go. Besides, you'll get bigger gains by getting the reflash done than without - I mean, you can get around 230hp at the wheels with turbo back exhaust and a computer reflash. So about $1500 in mods and you're pushing 60 or 70hp more at the wheels than stock. Not too shabby.
02-19-2004, 10:07 AM
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Re: DSM modifying mentality?
Originally posted by skeptic
I seems like WRX owners start with a new computer (flash the stock module, add a UTEC, whatever), then go from there.
I seems like WRX owners start with a new computer (flash the stock module, add a UTEC, whatever), then go from there.
1) best bang for the buck
2) the whole "I don't want to get pulled over by the cops and have to go visit the smog referee" factor.
The reflash is virtually undetectable, requires no visible modifications (useful when the cop pokes around under the hood), and yields great horsepower gains. 35HP for about $650 for a Vishnu reflash is a good deal. To get similar horsepower increases would require an uppipe, downpipe and a catback exhaust (which will not pass a cop's visual inspection) and would cost much more money.
-Soren
02-19-2004, 11:44 AM
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Originally posted by sonicsuby
All cars aren't the same. Just because the WRX has a turbo and so do the 1/2g eclipses do, that doesn't mean you should modify them the same.
All cars aren't the same. Just because the WRX has a turbo and so do the 1/2g eclipses do, that doesn't mean you should modify them the same.
Yes, I understand this. I wasn't trying to ask why people don't do the same mods as they do on a DSM, but why the different way of approaching it.
The MBC just doesn't work on the WRX the same as it does on the DSM - you can do it safely, but it's not the best way to go. Besides, you'll get bigger gains by getting the reflash done than without - I mean, you can get around 230hp at the wheels with turbo back exhaust and a computer reflash. So about $1500 in mods and you're pushing 60 or 70hp more at the wheels than stock. Not too shabby.
But again, I'm not trying to compare the merits of low-tech moding, for lack of a better term, to chip re-flash/UTEC based moding, I'm just trying to see if anyone is going with a cheaper low-tech approach.
I've never heard of cops looking around under the hood of a car.. Why would a cop care? I live in Florida, used to live in Oregon and California if that makes a difference. Sure, the smog inspectors might, but pulling out a MBC should be a 5 minute job.
02-19-2004, 10:23 PM
#7
I've never heard of cops looking around under the hood of a car.. Why would a cop care? I live in Florida, used to live in Oregon and California if that makes a difference. Sure, the smog inspectors might, but pulling out a MBC should be a 5 minute job. [/B]
Granted, a majority of these cops probably don't know what's stock versus aftermarket on every car ever made by a simple visual check, but they are getting schooling on aftermarket performance mods, and generally know which ones are illegal.
02-19-2004, 11:57 PM
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"DSM Mentality" is old skool mentality.
Slap on some fat injectors, fat fuel pump, fat FPR, crank up the boost through the roof and "tune it" with AFC isn't exactly rocket science.
Concepts of ignition timing tuning simply do not exist in the DSM world.
Old skool is cool, but new skool is better.
Now, with engine management that is out on the market, cars are making more power, on poopier gas, running less boost and putting less stress on the engine.
P.S. I am an ex-DSM owner as well. The original creator of Club DSM AT.
Slap on some fat injectors, fat fuel pump, fat FPR, crank up the boost through the roof and "tune it" with AFC isn't exactly rocket science.
Concepts of ignition timing tuning simply do not exist in the DSM world.
Old skool is cool, but new skool is better.
Now, with engine management that is out on the market, cars are making more power, on poopier gas, running less boost and putting less stress on the engine.
P.S. I am an ex-DSM owner as well. The original creator of Club DSM AT.
02-20-2004, 05:21 AM
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Originally posted by Imprezer
"DSM Mentality" is old skool mentality.
Slap on some fat injectors, fat fuel pump, fat FPR, crank up the boost through the roof and "tune it" with AFC isn't exactly rocket science.
Concepts of ignition timing tuning simply do not exist in the DSM world.
Old skool is cool, but new skool is better.
Now, with engine management that is out on the market, cars are making more power, on poopier gas, running less boost and putting less stress on the engine.
P.S. I am an ex-DSM owner as well. The original creator of Club DSM AT.
"DSM Mentality" is old skool mentality.
Slap on some fat injectors, fat fuel pump, fat FPR, crank up the boost through the roof and "tune it" with AFC isn't exactly rocket science.
Concepts of ignition timing tuning simply do not exist in the DSM world.
Old skool is cool, but new skool is better.
Now, with engine management that is out on the market, cars are making more power, on poopier gas, running less boost and putting less stress on the engine.
P.S. I am an ex-DSM owner as well. The original creator of Club DSM AT.
I really hate the idea of paying $650 to have someone re-program a computer chip, when you get nothing tangible in return. Just your old chip. Then if you make other modifications you need to send it off for another re-flash to make the most of it... Something about that just screams "rip off" to me. I think you can get chips for other cars re-flashed for something like $100. THAT seems like a reasonable price.
But in any event, in researching this site and others is seems to me that going with something a UTEK for $1,000 is the best way to go. Ability to self tune, something tangible so I don't feel so ripped off. I just wanted to know why so few people seem to go with the cheap low-tech method of modifying.
Here is what I have decided as the reasons. Low-tech (old school) will work. It will add power. It IS a better bang for the buck (hp to $$). High-tech is better. More hp. More efficient. More expensive, and a higher $$ to hp ratio (more expensive per hp). So why does it seem that people mod'ing DSMs tend to go low-tech (you can go all high-tech elecronic with a DSM as well) and WRX'ers go high-tech? Money. The WRX is still new. Still going to cost you $20k or so to get a used one. Most people buying $20k cars can afford $650 to re-flash a computer chip, where many people buying $2,500 DSM's are saving their pennies to pay for gas.
I am waiting until this summer to buy a WRX (I plan to move from Florida to North Carolina around June/July then buy the WRX after I'm there). But last night on the way home the power steering pump on my Wrangler went out (spun the pulley right off the pump). If the dealership I took the Jeep to would have sold Subaru's as well, I'd have a WRX today.
Last edited by skeptic; 02-20-2004 at 05:33 AM.
02-20-2004, 06:13 AM
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Origami posted by skeptic
I don't understand what you mean when you say a MBC just doesn't work the same, even though you say you can do it safely.
I don't understand what you mean when you say a MBC just doesn't work the same, even though you say you can do it safely.
Yes, an MBC can be used in moderation but I wouldn't use one without an EGT gauge to let me know if things are getting a little out of hand. It would probably be okay to use at a drag strip where the ECU will see throttle position at max, but I'd be concerned about everyday driving.
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02-20-2004, 07:37 AM
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Originally posted by Wingless Wonder
[B]When an MBC is used, and possibly an EBC under certain conditions, there is a likelihood of a PTFB (part-throttle, full-boost) condition, which can make the exhaust gas temperature soar beyond a safe level. This doesn't occur all of the time, and certain driving conditions have to be present for it to happen, but it can happen. I think PTFB can occur when climbing a grade at too low of a throttle opening to trigger the full-rich condition of the factory ECU. There are a couple of devices on the market to help deal with the PTFB condition but they still aren't the ideal solution.
[B]When an MBC is used, and possibly an EBC under certain conditions, there is a likelihood of a PTFB (part-throttle, full-boost) condition, which can make the exhaust gas temperature soar beyond a safe level. This doesn't occur all of the time, and certain driving conditions have to be present for it to happen, but it can happen. I think PTFB can occur when climbing a grade at too low of a throttle opening to trigger the full-rich condition of the factory ECU. There are a couple of devices on the market to help deal with the PTFB condition but they still aren't the ideal solution.
Yes, an MBC can be used in moderation but I wouldn't use one without an EGT gauge to let me know if things are getting a little out of hand. It would probably be okay to use at a drag strip where the ECU will see throttle position at max, but I'd be concerned about everyday driving.
02-20-2004, 08:30 AM
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Originally posted by Wingless Wonder
When an MBC is used, and possibly an EBC under certain conditions, there is a likelihood of a PTFB (part-throttle, full-boost) condition, which can make the exhaust gas temperature soar beyond a safe level. This doesn't occur all of the time, and certain driving conditions have to be present for it to happen, but it can happen. I think PTFB can occur when climbing a grade at too low of a throttle opening to trigger the full-rich condition of the factory ECU. There are a couple of devices on the market to help deal with the PTFB condition but they still aren't the ideal solution.
Yes, an MBC can be used in moderation but I wouldn't use one without an EGT gauge to let me know if things are getting a little out of hand. It would probably be okay to use at a drag strip where the ECU will see throttle position at max, but I'd be concerned about everyday driving.
--
0==WW==0
"…axles of evil…" - george w. bush
When an MBC is used, and possibly an EBC under certain conditions, there is a likelihood of a PTFB (part-throttle, full-boost) condition, which can make the exhaust gas temperature soar beyond a safe level. This doesn't occur all of the time, and certain driving conditions have to be present for it to happen, but it can happen. I think PTFB can occur when climbing a grade at too low of a throttle opening to trigger the full-rich condition of the factory ECU. There are a couple of devices on the market to help deal with the PTFB condition but they still aren't the ideal solution.
Yes, an MBC can be used in moderation but I wouldn't use one without an EGT gauge to let me know if things are getting a little out of hand. It would probably be okay to use at a drag strip where the ECU will see throttle position at max, but I'd be concerned about everyday driving.
--
0==WW==0
"…axles of evil…" - george w. bush
02-20-2004, 10:08 AM
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You buy a stock WRX. You get about 160hp to the wheels. Then, you spend $650 and get a re-map. You get + ~ 20hp to the wheels.
I think this is uber cool. Now, I have seen cars with gobs of mods (exhaust, intake, EBC's) that made less power than stock or barely over which "feeling" like they were making power.
Engine management is the key. I thank God everyday that Subaru crowd knows that and there are GOBS of people with re-maps and few people with silly AFC's. Thats how Subaru enthusiasts were brought up.
I think this is uber cool. Now, I have seen cars with gobs of mods (exhaust, intake, EBC's) that made less power than stock or barely over which "feeling" like they were making power.
Engine management is the key. I thank God everyday that Subaru crowd knows that and there are GOBS of people with re-maps and few people with silly AFC's.
Thats how Subaru enthusiasts were brought up.
02-20-2004, 11:54 AM
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Originally posted by Imprezer
You buy a stock WRX. You get about 160hp to the wheels. Then, you spend $650 and get a re-map. You get + ~ 20hp to the wheels.
I think this is uber cool. Now, I have seen cars with gobs of mods (exhaust, intake, EBC's) that made less power than stock or barely over which "feeling" like they were making power.
Engine management is the key. I thank God everyday that Subaru crowd knows that and there are GOBS of people with re-maps and few people with silly AFC's. Thats how Subaru enthusiasts were brought up.
You buy a stock WRX. You get about 160hp to the wheels. Then, you spend $650 and get a re-map. You get + ~ 20hp to the wheels.
I think this is uber cool. Now, I have seen cars with gobs of mods (exhaust, intake, EBC's) that made less power than stock or barely over which "feeling" like they were making power.
Engine management is the key. I thank God everyday that Subaru crowd knows that and there are GOBS of people with re-maps and few people with silly AFC's.
Thats how Subaru enthusiasts were brought up.
