Downshift Into First?
08-12-2003, 12:16 AM
#1
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Downshift Into First?
I just read a review of the WRX at CanadianDriver, and it brought up a negative point I have heard before:
When navigating low speed twistys, in order to keep the revs and power up, you often have to downshift into first? Is it that boggy? (correct term?) I am new to shifting - still driving my auto, but I have driven stick- and my understanding is 1st is only for starting from a dead stop. You only ever downshift to 2nd, for turns. That's how I've done it, the little I have.
So is this true, and what does that mean in the real world of city driving, or small town streets? Are you constantly downshifting to 1st and revving it, just to keep it up (so to speak?)
Seems like a lot of work...
When navigating low speed twistys, in order to keep the revs and power up, you often have to downshift into first? Is it that boggy? (correct term?) I am new to shifting - still driving my auto, but I have driven stick- and my understanding is 1st is only for starting from a dead stop. You only ever downshift to 2nd, for turns. That's how I've done it, the little I have.
So is this true, and what does that mean in the real world of city driving, or small town streets? Are you constantly downshifting to 1st and revving it, just to keep it up (so to speak?)
Seems like a lot of work...
08-12-2003, 04:58 AM
#2
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Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Seattle, WA
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Car Info: '03 Impreza WRX
Hmmm, I drove up and down both Rainier and St Helens last week and I never had to hit 1st, or 2nd come to that. (both twisty roads with a lotta switchbacks and often no crash barriers)
I learned to drive in England where the roads are narrower and just as twisty as anything around here (and the limit is 60, even on country lanes!) and I don't recall ever having to get down to 1st to make a corner. 2nd sometimes but not 1st.
WRX is geared a bit higher than my old Civic (or anything I drove back home) but I still have a hard time imagining the corner that'd force me to downshift to 1st.
City driving (or freeway in traffic) you might have to downshift to keep her rolling - those higher gear ratios makes it a little less tolerant - but with experience I've found that I can often baby her along in 2nd just like I would with my Civic. (Just don't expect to step on the gas and go - you have to ease the rpm back above 2000 first)
Shifting and city traffic are par for the course with manuals though - one reason so many people went to autos.
I learned to drive in England where the roads are narrower and just as twisty as anything around here (and the limit is 60, even on country lanes!) and I don't recall ever having to get down to 1st to make a corner. 2nd sometimes but not 1st.
WRX is geared a bit higher than my old Civic (or anything I drove back home) but I still have a hard time imagining the corner that'd force me to downshift to 1st.
City driving (or freeway in traffic) you might have to downshift to keep her rolling - those higher gear ratios makes it a little less tolerant - but with experience I've found that I can often baby her along in 2nd just like I would with my Civic. (Just don't expect to step on the gas and go - you have to ease the rpm back above 2000 first)
Shifting and city traffic are par for the course with manuals though - one reason so many people went to autos.
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08-13-2003, 01:15 AM
#4
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i don't know what shifter you have, but in my brief experience with my 04 Wagon (only 1800 miles), the synchros won't let me downshift to 1st unless I'm almost at a complete stop...practically under 5mph. I don't want to force it into gear, so i just rev up and try for 2nd gear. I'm in 2nd or 3rd most of the time anyway.
08-13-2003, 01:34 AM
#5
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I guess my main concern about this is whether the wrx is really such a dog on the low-end, that around town/city driving is a slow hassle with lots of downshifting and no power. Half of my driving in inner-city.
I have only driven the wrx as an automatic, tho I will get a stick if I get one. I didn't really think the auto was THAT bad, considering how bad its reputation is. But I'm driving a '92 Corolla now, so I guess "power" is all relative?
Any thoughts? Thanks for the help!
I have only driven the wrx as an automatic, tho I will get a stick if I get one. I didn't really think the auto was THAT bad, considering how bad its reputation is. But I'm driving a '92 Corolla now, so I guess "power" is all relative?
Any thoughts? Thanks for the help!
08-13-2003, 07:45 AM
#6
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I drive in downtown chicago all the time and it's mostly 2nd & 3rd with a downshift to 1st just to keep the car rolling but 2nd holds well for most inner city driving.
Now I have a spec stage 4 clutch that sucks in the city till you get used to it.
Bottom line is I think the wrx is fine in the "twistys" but I'm no expert.
Now I have a spec stage 4 clutch that sucks in the city till you get used to it.
Bottom line is I think the wrx is fine in the "twistys" but I'm no expert.
08-13-2003, 10:04 AM
#8
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IMHO, downshifting to first is only desirable in a few situations:
1) you're at a complete stop
2) you're entering a tight corner on an auto-x
3) you're pulling into a parking lot
4) you're on a steep hill in slow traffic
In the latter three cases when downshifting to first while rolling is desired, I've successfully learned to double clutch and rev match. Ideally this would not be necessary, but hopefully we all realize that the world is not ideal.
The WRX does *feel* boggy in the low revs simply because it makes so much power as the revs climb. However, if you compare the power output of the WRX at say 1,800 rpm's I bet it is a little bit greater than the power output of my old Civic at 1,800 rpm's. The difference is the Civic doesn't make huge torque over any of it's rev range whereas the WRX does. Said another way, the torque curve climbs steeply on the WRX at low revs whereas it is much less steep on many NA engines.
1) you're at a complete stop
2) you're entering a tight corner on an auto-x
3) you're pulling into a parking lot
4) you're on a steep hill in slow traffic
In the latter three cases when downshifting to first while rolling is desired, I've successfully learned to double clutch and rev match. Ideally this would not be necessary, but hopefully we all realize that the world is not ideal.
The WRX does *feel* boggy in the low revs simply because it makes so much power as the revs climb. However, if you compare the power output of the WRX at say 1,800 rpm's I bet it is a little bit greater than the power output of my old Civic at 1,800 rpm's. The difference is the Civic doesn't make huge torque over any of it's rev range whereas the WRX does. Said another way, the torque curve climbs steeply on the WRX at low revs whereas it is much less steep on many NA engines.
08-13-2003, 11:07 AM
#10
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I live in Southern Cali and I'm in traffic most of the time. 2nd is the lowest I would go unless I am almost stopped drop it in 1st. You can feel the car and it will tell you what gear to be in. I've been driving for 17 years though. Maybe its just experience.
08-13-2003, 02:00 PM
#11
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Originally posted by jamester
I guess my main concern about this is whether the wrx is really such a dog on the low-end, that around town/city driving is a slow hassle with lots of downshifting and no power. Half of my driving in inner-city.
I have only driven the wrx as an automatic, tho I will get a stick if I get one. I didn't really think the auto was THAT bad, considering how bad its reputation is. But I'm driving a '92 Corolla now, so I guess "power" is all relative?
Any thoughts? Thanks for the help!
I guess my main concern about this is whether the wrx is really such a dog on the low-end, that around town/city driving is a slow hassle with lots of downshifting and no power. Half of my driving in inner-city.
I have only driven the wrx as an automatic, tho I will get a stick if I get one. I didn't really think the auto was THAT bad, considering how bad its reputation is. But I'm driving a '92 Corolla now, so I guess "power" is all relative?
Any thoughts? Thanks for the help!
08-13-2003, 02:00 PM
#12
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Car Info: 2004 Impreza Outback Sport
I rarely if ever downshift into first. Even if I'm rolling slightly coming to a light and it turns green, I'll just pop it into second and take the extra second to get the revs up(I could rev match it but I'm too lazy). I've noticed that alot of the time when you try to put it into first in a situation like this that there is resistance from the gearbox. That's just a signal to me that I shouldn't be trying it.
To a new stick driver, I'd say Subaru's aren't the best. They're very finnicky compared to other standards. Then again, I suppose if you're not used to a standard you're less likely to be jarred by the way the tranny is compared to others. Either way, practice makes perfect. I'd driven stick on an off when I got my car. I was ok but not spectacular at it. Now that I've had my car for a few weeks, i've really learned the trasnmission and drive smoothly all the time. good luck!
To a new stick driver, I'd say Subaru's aren't the best. They're very finnicky compared to other standards. Then again, I suppose if you're not used to a standard you're less likely to be jarred by the way the tranny is compared to others. Either way, practice makes perfect. I'd driven stick on an off when I got my car. I was ok but not spectacular at it. Now that I've had my car for a few weeks, i've really learned the trasnmission and drive smoothly all the time. good luck!
08-13-2003, 02:16 PM
#13
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Truely all you need is 2nd and 3rd but if you are in that weird area where you do need to downshift into first, if you look in your cars manual they give all the speeds that you can downshift into what gears, I know in the -03 WRX you can downshift to first at 18 MPH. Its all knowing your transmission, If you don't you'll probally end up over-winding your engine, or damaging it. Good Luck
WRX Rush
WRX Rush
08-13-2003, 08:28 PM
#14
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Thanks again for all the responses!
Bonkers is absolutely right, ultimately I gotta try it myself. I am going to schedule a couple more "lessons" on my friends manuals, then try the wrx.
I must say, though, in relation to Maury's response- I was test driving a mazda6 manu/matic today, and around town never needed to rev past 3000... so trying to keep the revs above 4000 seems high to me, especially for low speed turns.
Or am I not getting something???
Bonkers is absolutely right, ultimately I gotta try it myself. I am going to schedule a couple more "lessons" on my friends manuals, then try the wrx.
I must say, though, in relation to Maury's response- I was test driving a mazda6 manu/matic today, and around town never needed to rev past 3000... so trying to keep the revs above 4000 seems high to me, especially for low speed turns.
Or am I not getting something???
08-13-2003, 09:19 PM
#15
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Originally posted by WRX Rush
Truely all you need is 2nd and 3rd but if you are in that weird area where you do need to downshift into first, if you look in your cars manual they give all the speeds that you can downshift into what gears, I know in the -03 WRX you can downshift to first at 18 MPH. Its all knowing your transmission, If you don't you'll probally end up over-winding your engine, or damaging it. Good Luck
WRX Rush
Truely all you need is 2nd and 3rd but if you are in that weird area where you do need to downshift into first, if you look in your cars manual they give all the speeds that you can downshift into what gears, I know in the -03 WRX you can downshift to first at 18 MPH. Its all knowing your transmission, If you don't you'll probally end up over-winding your engine, or damaging it. Good Luck
WRX Rush
What is over winding your engine? And also rev matching?
Thanks,
-Nigel