Vishnu's take on Intakes
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Originally posted by BADWRX
I suspect that Shiv MAY (Read *MAY*) denounce them because they do not have a Vishnu label on them.
I suspect that Shiv MAY (Read *MAY*) denounce them because they do not have a Vishnu label on them.
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Originally posted by scoobiesnacks
Ding Ding Ding..... we have a winner!!!!. Thats how he is from what I hear.
Ding Ding Ding..... we have a winner!!!!. Thats how he is from what I hear.
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ww
"...axles of evil..." - George W. Bush
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I know he makes good products but I've heard war stories about him not wanting to tune stuff that is not his product or not tuning it like it's to get the most out of it.
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I guess I'll say something.
It's not too polite to rip someone who isn't here. Then again, i have never been know to be too polite
Shiv IS smart. He does know A Lot about cars and especially TUNING. He does MAKE , from good sources, very good money.
Question: Would you make more money if you gave 20 people a good tune or one a GREAT tune.
I am sure he is bombarded with wrx (and other cars) this and that. Funny things always happen as you increase supply. In order to meet the mass desires Q/C always goes down. It's the price people pay to make that stab at riches.
That right there, answers it all.
As for the intakes, I am sure you all know, well you know now... those stoopid intakes increase air volume A LOT more than stock. I spend more time tuning cars with those things. Tuning becomes more labor intensive. It is so much easier and nicer when people don't have them in the car. it makes TUNING ALOT easier. I should just tell people they are crap/no good so I can always have quick easy tunes
Do you all get my drift????
It's not too polite to rip someone who isn't here. Then again, i have never been know to be too polite
Shiv IS smart. He does know A Lot about cars and especially TUNING. He does MAKE , from good sources, very good money.
Question: Would you make more money if you gave 20 people a good tune or one a GREAT tune.
I am sure he is bombarded with wrx (and other cars) this and that. Funny things always happen as you increase supply. In order to meet the mass desires Q/C always goes down. It's the price people pay to make that stab at riches.
That right there, answers it all.
As for the intakes, I am sure you all know, well you know now... those stoopid intakes increase air volume A LOT more than stock. I spend more time tuning cars with those things. Tuning becomes more labor intensive. It is so much easier and nicer when people don't have them in the car. it makes TUNING ALOT easier. I should just tell people they are crap/no good so I can always have quick easy tunes
Do you all get my drift????
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Intakes
Hi guys,
Just to clear up a few issues. We do not recommend intakes for a very simply, easy-to-verify reason:
They induce MAF sensor misreadings while providing NO appreciable improvement in airflow (up to ~400hp from what I've seen on my own WRX).
Will we tune an intake-equipped car that comes to our shop for custom dyno tuning? Of course, we will. We have done in the past. However, we owe it to the customer to inform him regarding the lack of pros and cons associated with the intake. I'm not particulary happy with charging a customer an extra hour of work when the end result makes no more power/torque than a similarly modded car without an intake. I suspect the customer will feel the same to a degree.
As for mail-order re-mapped ECUs, there is no chance of us sending out ECUs mapped for intakes. Making such a map requires considerable dyno and road tuning. Not to mention the FACT that rotating rotating aftermarket intake tube yield appreciable changes in MAF readings and, as a result, A/F ratios.
Cheers,
shiv
www.vishnutuning.com
Just to clear up a few issues. We do not recommend intakes for a very simply, easy-to-verify reason:
They induce MAF sensor misreadings while providing NO appreciable improvement in airflow (up to ~400hp from what I've seen on my own WRX).
Will we tune an intake-equipped car that comes to our shop for custom dyno tuning? Of course, we will. We have done in the past. However, we owe it to the customer to inform him regarding the lack of pros and cons associated with the intake. I'm not particulary happy with charging a customer an extra hour of work when the end result makes no more power/torque than a similarly modded car without an intake. I suspect the customer will feel the same to a degree.
As for mail-order re-mapped ECUs, there is no chance of us sending out ECUs mapped for intakes. Making such a map requires considerable dyno and road tuning. Not to mention the FACT that rotating rotating aftermarket intake tube yield appreciable changes in MAF readings and, as a result, A/F ratios.
Cheers,
shiv
www.vishnutuning.com
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Originally posted by BADWRX
If intakes were truly so detramental, then why in the heck to like all high HP cars in the world run them?
I suspect that Shiv MAY (Read *MAY*) denounce them because they do not have a Vishnu label on them.
If intakes were truly so detramental, then why in the heck to like all high HP cars in the world run them?
I suspect that Shiv MAY (Read *MAY*) denounce them because they do not have a Vishnu label on them.
Just my 2c,
Shiv
www.vishnutuning.com
Last edited by Vishnu; Jan 11, 2003 at 11:16 AM.
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Originally posted by christoph1371
I guess I'll say something.
It's not too polite to rip someone who isn't here. Then again, i have never been know to be too polite
Shiv IS smart. He does know A Lot about cars and especially TUNING. He does MAKE , from good sources, very good money.
Question: Would you make more money if you gave 20 people a good tune or one a GREAT tune.
I am sure he is bombarded with wrx (and other cars) this and that. Funny things always happen as you increase supply. In order to meet the mass desires Q/C always goes down. It's the price people pay to make that stab at riches.
That right there, answers it all.
I guess I'll say something.
It's not too polite to rip someone who isn't here. Then again, i have never been know to be too polite
Shiv IS smart. He does know A Lot about cars and especially TUNING. He does MAKE , from good sources, very good money.
Question: Would you make more money if you gave 20 people a good tune or one a GREAT tune.
I am sure he is bombarded with wrx (and other cars) this and that. Funny things always happen as you increase supply. In order to meet the mass desires Q/C always goes down. It's the price people pay to make that stab at riches.
That right there, answers it all.
And to suggest that I don't recommend intakes because I don't like spending the necessary time tuning wouldn't explain the 15-20 hours a week I spend tuning on the dyno and testing on the road. And to suggest that intakes improve airflow "A LOT" is equally misinformative and disingenuous.
Regards,
Shiv
www.vishnutuning.com
Last edited by Vishnu; Jan 11, 2003 at 03:30 PM.
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Just something to think about...
In Japan, the intakes aren't as big of a product as they are here. Most Japanese companies offer intakes which are simply a "filter kit". Which means it is just a MAS adapter and a cone element.
At the same time, replacement panel filters are very popular.
AEM is distributed in Japan, but they do not sell their at all.
Go figure...
- Alex
In Japan, the intakes aren't as big of a product as they are here. Most Japanese companies offer intakes which are simply a "filter kit". Which means it is just a MAS adapter and a cone element.
At the same time, replacement panel filters are very popular.
AEM is distributed in Japan, but they do not sell their at all.
Go figure...
- Alex
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May I "suggest" that people start businesses to make money?
A simple business model would show that Q/c does dissipate with increasing supply+demand.
Airflow does increase...I am not saying it's any better. The ECU is only as good as its inputs. Once you alter them (air intake/air flow) the precalibrated ECU finds difficulty in reading the new data.
Everyone knows that spending "X" time on a budgeted project appropriate. Spending "X" + “more” time is a diminishing return…economic fact.
You or anyone can question my motives all day. I am just laying out facts of most business operations, which you may or may not fall into.
Regards,
Chris
A simple business model would show that Q/c does dissipate with increasing supply+demand.
Airflow does increase...I am not saying it's any better. The ECU is only as good as its inputs. Once you alter them (air intake/air flow) the precalibrated ECU finds difficulty in reading the new data.
Everyone knows that spending "X" time on a budgeted project appropriate. Spending "X" + “more” time is a diminishing return…economic fact.
You or anyone can question my motives all day. I am just laying out facts of most business operations, which you may or may not fall into.
Regards,
Chris
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Originally posted by christoph1371
May I "suggest" that people start businesses to make money?
A simple business model would show that Q/c does dissipate with increasing supply+demand.
May I "suggest" that people start businesses to make money?
A simple business model would show that Q/c does dissipate with increasing supply+demand.
QUOTE]Originally posted by christoph1371
Airflow does increase...I am not saying it's any better. The ECU is only as good as its inputs. Once you alter them (air intake/air flow) the precalibrated ECU finds difficulty in reading the new data. [/QUOTE]
The ECU finds it difficult to read the new data because much of the air mass smashes against the side of the tube, missing the hot film in the MAF sensor. This is why MAF readings are lower (not greater) with aftermarket intakes. Hence, the lean-run conditions intakes tend to induce. This does not equate to more airflow as illustrated by dyno testing on WRXs running MAF-less speed density systems based engine control systems.
QUOTE]Originally posted by christoph1371
Everyone knows that spending "X" time on a budgeted project appropriate. Spending "X" + “more” time is a diminishing return…economic fact[/QUOTE]
Again, we're not dealing with a economic model. Tuning is about problem solving. And problem solving does not follow the laws of deminishing returns. Either you solve the problem, or you don't. Sometimes it takes one hour, sometimes three. Without the use of a dyno, it's virtually impossible to know if there is a problem in the first place, let alone being able to solve it. It's really easy to overestimate one's tuning acumen when you don't test it objectively.
Road tuning off of Delta Dash knock corrections is simply inadequate. It's very easy to see nice positive numbers everywhere. It's a lot harder to figure out why the expected power isn't being generated at one particular engine speed or another-- as one often would if he were using a dyno for initial mapping/testing.
QUOTE]Originally posted by christoph1371
You or anyone can question my motives all day. I am just laying out facts of most business operations, which you may or may not fall into.[/QUOTE]
I don't think you know enough about anyone's buniness operation other than your own. Let's leave it at that and move on.
Regards,
Shiv
Last edited by Vishnu; Jan 11, 2003 at 09:01 PM.
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Wow, I don't see much that you have said that I do not already believe. I have kept on telling everyone that DYNO tuning alone was inadequate and not to count on a dyno tune to create the optimum map.
I simply do not like people who think that all good tuning occurs ONLY on a dyno. You hear the mantra constantly, "my car was DYNO tuned”. A person rarely hears, "my car was street tuned".
And who ever tunes soley by checking for knock corrections while driving? Now that's just lame.
1. I am sure there are intakes that follow “the less air” model. However, can we say that theory applies to all intakes, does it just apply to certain ones or does it apply to certain ones on WRX’s only? As a scientist (career/college background…Biological science) it is hard for me to say for certainty that “all” of anything means anything. (Did that make sense?) I usually like my results/theorems documented with empirical data.
I find some good data in the things you post, but not everything you post…I need more data.
2. I agree tuning is about problem solving. Are you saying solving = success? What is a successful tune? Tuning is neither on nor off. Would anyone argue it doesn’t adhere to a measurable scale? So is 80% of the cars’ potential a successful tune? Or is only 100% a successful tune?
3. It can be argued by many, that in order to maximize your earnings you need to maximize your time on any given project. More projects = more earnings…no? The question that always interests me is…at what point does the quality of the project go down?
4. As a consultant, I have worked for quite a few “successful” Silicon Valley companies. I can say from first hand experience that a great majority of those companies have, like it or not, all fallen victim to basic economic laws. That is why, as I try and dabble in my own tiny business, I try to capitalize on their successes and not to make the mistakes I see other businesses doing.
Of course, that would mean that my perception of success/failure is the same as theirs. Which it isn’t…hence, the never solved dilemma?
This is why I question practically EVERYTHING. Isn’t science GREAT!
Regards,
Chris
I simply do not like people who think that all good tuning occurs ONLY on a dyno. You hear the mantra constantly, "my car was DYNO tuned”. A person rarely hears, "my car was street tuned".
And who ever tunes soley by checking for knock corrections while driving? Now that's just lame.
1. I am sure there are intakes that follow “the less air” model. However, can we say that theory applies to all intakes, does it just apply to certain ones or does it apply to certain ones on WRX’s only? As a scientist (career/college background…Biological science) it is hard for me to say for certainty that “all” of anything means anything. (Did that make sense?) I usually like my results/theorems documented with empirical data.
I find some good data in the things you post, but not everything you post…I need more data.
2. I agree tuning is about problem solving. Are you saying solving = success? What is a successful tune? Tuning is neither on nor off. Would anyone argue it doesn’t adhere to a measurable scale? So is 80% of the cars’ potential a successful tune? Or is only 100% a successful tune?
3. It can be argued by many, that in order to maximize your earnings you need to maximize your time on any given project. More projects = more earnings…no? The question that always interests me is…at what point does the quality of the project go down?
4. As a consultant, I have worked for quite a few “successful” Silicon Valley companies. I can say from first hand experience that a great majority of those companies have, like it or not, all fallen victim to basic economic laws. That is why, as I try and dabble in my own tiny business, I try to capitalize on their successes and not to make the mistakes I see other businesses doing.
Of course, that would mean that my perception of success/failure is the same as theirs. Which it isn’t…hence, the never solved dilemma?
This is why I question practically EVERYTHING. Isn’t science GREAT!
Regards,
Chris
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Shogun,
Pffffft! Another blunt steretyping statement...
AEM, Injen, Weapon R and most other intake get the air from the fender well. As a matter of fact, The OEM intake DOESN't get it from the fender. So with them you get as cold of an air as you an get. But thats not we are talking about in here.
Pffffft! Another blunt steretyping statement...
AEM, Injen, Weapon R and most other intake get the air from the fender well. As a matter of fact, The OEM intake DOESN't get it from the fender. So with them you get as cold of an air as you an get. But thats not we are talking about in here.
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OK, I'm not a tuning person, I just get in the gears, not a scientist, but love to get my hands dirty. I still haven't heard, "read" the yes/no on a cai. For the most part I am hearing that no is more suitable, and brings the question to this. If the maf can't make up for the sudden on rush of air, are their aftermarket maf's sold so we don't have to spend 1-3 hours more on the dyno. Besides I think we all know it's not an COLD air intake, unless of course you live in ALASKA. Bottom line, 1.)Does look cool; 2.) Does increase airflow, 3.) Does weigh less than OE, 4.) And again, I think it falls back to what alot of people say, your ride, your dollar...... My $.02 worth. Besides I'm a california graduate, jack of all trades, master of NONE..........