I should preface this post with the fact that i did not write this. a friend on another site wrote this, but seeing as Subies have the most notoriously loud exhaust on the road right now, i thought i would put this out there and test the waters. please, if you are interested in this, email me at ryan.fabian@beale.af.mil.

this is not a joke, and we will be taking this as far as possible. the key is people backing us up. thanks for reading.


First off, this post is long. Sorry in advance, and you should probably read and reply at home if you're watched like a hawk at work.

This thread is in response to some of those who were interested in forming a political lobby group. I was posting a reply to one other thread, but it got so big, I decided to make it into its own thread, and not derail the original thread. Although I mention that we don’t need all that many people (in comparison with the ones many of you are familiar with), I still think we need to have a fairly large number of vote-capable and/or money contributing people to be part of this for it to be successful. However, looking at some of the forums I post on, I don’t think it’s difficult to find these people. It’s just probably difficult to convince them to join. Anyways, here are my thoughts and ideas about forming a political lobby. It’s probably not what some of you have been thinking of when I first mentioned it, but maybe many of you have ideas I haven’t thought of. If anything, this thread should at least be entertaining, if not insightful.

Whether we like it or not, the police are doing their jobs, and they’re doing it within their power scope, and the general public is behind them 100%.

At this point, we can't fight it effectively through legal battles. We can't fight it in the court room because 1. It's a revenue source for the cities, so they have not interest in changing the current practices 2. There's really nothing to fight in a civil suit because the police are doing their jobs enforcing laws 3. We can't rely on the general public for help, we can rely on the general public to increase pressure on us because the last thing Mrs. Smith wants is a “street racer” to run over their children. You can blame media and the actual idiot street racers for this.

So like I was saying before, instead of attacking this problem directly in a courtroom setting where we're likely to lose due to overwhelming legal and public reasons, a political lobby would be a much better tactic as we would be on equal grounds: manipulation of the political system.

In a brief research on Elk Grove's voting history, some elections were as close as 1,500 vote difference. The good part about this is that it means that some city officials/propositions have barely squeaked by. Meaning, a lot of officials and proposition authors are at the mercy of voters and would do a lot to get it. The bad part is we still need quite a bit of people to be a lethal political animal with teeth if we rely on votes alone.

California law is what the police are using to pull us over and hand out citations using vehicle codes. As a lobby, we won't have the power to change California law (unless we've got tons of voters and capital), but we will have the power to influence, indirectly, the application of those laws. Even though we can't change California law, we can still attack the jugular: REVENUE.

We should aim to make changes in the revenue structure, and make it unpleasant to write frivolous vehicle equipment citations. Some things that will help:

1. Abolish all fines and service fees associated with vehicle equipment violations or, instead of allowing the fines and service fees to be classified as discretionary money (money that can be used for anything) it should be earmarked for programs that are not critical to city operations, or possible “success stories” for officials such as neighborhood redevelopment. Our reasons would be that it is unfair for citizens to be penalized for non-criminal activities, and that vehicle equipment violations are not offensive in nature and do not cause individuals or the city to lose money, property, or limb, therefore there is no one to pay compensation to.

2. Reclassify vehicle equipment violation citations and stops in a way that they can’t be reported as part of a statistic(s) for Federal, State, and/or Local funding grants and reimbursements. Our reason would be that because these types of violations are not criminal in nature, law enforcement organizations should not receive additional funding for activities that do not directly deal with reducing criminal activities. Driving with straight-pipes is not street racing, and it’s definitely not like shooting a sawed off shotgun at a crowd of people.

3. Increase the paperwork and cost involved with vehicle equipment violation citations. Peace officers that have the authority to write vehicle equipment violation citations should be required to go through ASE certified training programs in order to identify equipment violations. If a peace officer issues a vehicle equipment violation, he should be required to follow up on the citation and ensure compliance is met. Our reason would be that peace officers should practice due diligence when issuing these types of violations. One would not expect an auditor to issue a finding that can result in losses without the education, technical expertise, and resources to back up those findings. A peace officer should not be held to a lower standard, especially when dealing with a private citizen.

Doing any, or all of these would keep writing citations for equipment violations from being a priority. If there’s no money being generated, or more work being done, it is costing money. If it’s costing money, there will be some very deep number-crunching on the cost:benefit analysis. Less emphasis would be placed on equipment violations.

Ideally, we could convince the CARB to adopt Nevada and Arizona’s smog laws where they would just normally run OBD2 diagnostics on newer cars, and maybe a sniffer test, but not require a visual test. But, this is definitely a pipe-dream in this state.

The key to doing all of this is by promising votes, and/or political capital contributions to key officials, organizations, and/or candidates. The beauty of this is that we don’t have to be all that big if we partner with other lobbies, and the candidates don’t necessarily have to be the top candidates. If they have enough voter appeal, a more powerful candidate will “cut deals” in order to win the popular, but less powerful, candidate’s supporters; or they can help get our message out and maybe assuage public opinion or other candidates/officials.


And by the way, the upcoming November elections show two Elk Grove city council positions up for grabs.

 

To me you would be much better off in trying to change the law(i.e. sound regulations) then changing the way the city's peace officers get funding. i do however agree deeply that a peace officer should NOT be able to make claims on what is legal and what not is legal if he has no clue on what he is talking about... It would be like a blind person trying to make critism on how someone looks by how their voice sounds. Just because it looks illegal doesn't mean it is, and the offier should not be able to make claims and force and individual to "prove them wrong" by forking over THEIR!!! money to do so... If they do however continue to force people to "prove them wrong" the individual should get reimbursed in full(right now you still gotta pay the 15 dollar fine or whatever) and the officer should get a makr on his record for making a false claim against that individual, I think if they went about it like that, there would be far less claims and my technical savy peace officers who actually know what they are talking about. I am tired of hearing "I got written up for my factory wrinkle coated intake manifold". That's just a bull**** ignorant cop, because even after you try to explain to them it's factory, and offer to show them the user manual they still don't change their mind and that cop should have to be heald accountable for such things

 

I'm all for the idea of points for bad citations. Cops will think twice before they write you up.

You won't get fines or fees reduced.

Things like extra money from the State for Drag net programs don't make it easy on us.

 

i agree. changing the fines is about as realistic as changing the smog laws. but officers getting penalized for writting incorrect citations should be adopted. however. there is always the problem of people changing back to stock before going to the ref. and in that case the officer might have made the right decision in writting the ticket, but would get screwed over because the person changed their setup before having it checked by the ref.

 

pictures taken by the officer at the time of the ticket issuing would work perfect.

 

+12

Just have the cop take pictures of "said" illegal parts!

 

Arnold is already pushing for stricter Green House Gas laws. By 2009, automobile companies must have lower-polluting cars. You can find this in the Sac Bee. So good luck getting CARB to adopt anything. If they were too, it'll only be stricter.

Abolishing fines? No way. These very same fines pay for our roads and generate revenue for ourselves. Abolishing fines would just mean a higher tax rate. I think obeying these petty laws would be cheaper and easier.


Require cops to go through an ASE course. Courses aren't free and there are a ton of cops in California. Paying for something that we already can't afford is retarded. Bad idea. Besides, most cops already get the basics of whats legal and what's not on your car. Not saying they go in depth because really, what is more important? The cop getting tons of information about cars or how to protect themselves better against some dirtbag that is trying to turn the cop's wife into a widow?

Cops don't necessarly get "points" against them for making a bad citation, but it does make an impact against them when they go to court for just about anything after words. I personally think this is a bad idea when you think about it with a little more depth. An officer that writes a bad citation gets points against them. Next time he goes to court for a DUI suspect, what do you think is gonna come up? The points and how if this officer is able to write a citation using poor judgement, then is it possible that this officer was also using poor judgement to arrest the DUI suspect? DUI suspect would probably be let off because of a pansy jury.


Cops shouldn't have to second guess themselves when writing a violation. This will just scare them more to go easier and easier. They already have to second guess themselves when getting in a shooting which is rediculous. Just 15-20 years ago this was much different. Now a days, if a cop sees a man reach into his pocket very fast and point something at him, he can't shoot him unless he sees that he is pulling out a gun. Not long ago, if a guy pulled something out just them same way, the cop didn't have to see definatly see a gun. He could just shoot him. This same kind of **** is keeping our cops from not doing their jobs the way they should be. Its not their fault but our own for putting too much pressure on them.

This is probably the most useless idea I have seen on these boards.


And btw. Almost every cop carries a digital camera on him for purposes of accident scenes. If you get pulled over and get a fix-it ticket, just ask the cop if he has a camera that he could take a picture with.

 

:sigh: I think my next mod is stock exhaust.

And then uppipe. :banana:

 

thinking about putting my car to stock with catless downpipe!!!

 

I’m the one who wrote the little essay in the first post. I’m glad to see that there’s enough genuine interest to have it spread to other forums.

While I don’t have a doctorate in city planning or government (do they even give those out for city planning? ) I do have a lot of experience in dealing with cities (most notably their finance departments which influence a lot of what goes on in a city), and indirectly with their police departments because most cities have a precinct or their HQ within the same area, and I talk to quite a few of them. I don’t want to misdirect anyone and have them think I’m trying to be the “Moses” of car enthusiasts, as I’m far from qualified to lead something like this, but I’ll help any way I can.

GT35 STI, changing the vehicle code laws mean changing State law, which means either legislative or governor action, or by voter initiatives (propositions) at the State level. The odds are heavily stacked up against us going through any of those routes. The general voting public does not want to support people whom they perceive as “street racers” and all connotations associated with that term. As a result, not many politicians are going to stick their necks out, and there aren’t enough enthusiasts to counter the “Mrs. Smiths” in the voting booths.

It is even less likely to penalize the police departments for “failed convictions.” That opens a whole can of worms in the legal department. Peace officers are agents of the city, and if they happen to get penalized while in the course of action utilizing due diligence, it’s the city that will be paying. What if the police are penalized for failed convictions in criminal suits? They would be more cautious in making convictions of real criminals, and more real criminals will probably get away with their crimes. I would rather get pulled over, than let a thief run free.

Double Phister and TitanSTI, part of my point behind my reasoning for forming a lobby group IS to change the fine/penalty structure. Fines for vehicle equipment violations are set at the local level, not the State level. And because it’s easier to change local law, changing local law should be our priority. As far as I know, court fees are not under city control, they’re under State, so we probably can’t do anything about those.

Galli916, the fines you pay for vehicle equipment ARE NOT REQUIRED TO PAY FOR STREETS OR ROADS. I’d be surprised if any part of that money is being used for streets. They go to the city’s general fund. This means it gets spent on whatever they want. Like building ugly gateways, or give financial breaks for other special interest groups like the Elk Grove Auto Mall (as if they don’t make enough money already). The half cent or so sales tax you pay on gasoline is the major source of funding for street building and maintenance, followed by State and Federal aid. PS vote yes on prop 87!

The point behind requiring police officers to be ASE certified (or trained) to be able to write equipment violation citations is that it WILL cost a lot of money, and those that are trained will not make so many frivolous traffic stops. This would probably only be limited to writing violations on smog equipment as it doesn’t take special training to spot things like tail lights not meeting vehicle code requirements. If something costs more money than it’s worth, a city will not pursue the action. Since it would be extremely expensive for a medium and larger city to certify all of their peace officers just to be able to write a ticket for modified exhaust (increased emissions, not decibal level), and if the violation does not carry a fine, then the city really is going to lose a lot of money (if we assume that these two ideas actually happen).

As a result, the city may not certify their PO’s, or they’ll probably elect to form a task force, therefore, there would be a reduction in frivolous traffic stops and citations, because one of three things happen. 1. No one is certified, so no vehicle equipment citations pertaining to smog equipment is issued. 2. A small group of officers are certified, and only they will be able to issue those citations. 3. All officers are certified, but they are at least uniformly, and well-educated on what is legal, and what isn't. Galli916, I totally agree with you about not penalizing peace officers. See my reply to GT35 STI. Also note that I said nothing about penalizing PO’s in my ideas in the original post. In fact, I support the police, I just think their priorities, for one reason or another, are not in the right order.

To everyone else, we’re more likely to have some influence over county and local politics as a solid group through voting and campaign contributions. This is why I think we should be getting more involved as a group at the local level, and then tackle the state level if we’re ever strong enough. Vehicle equipment laws are made at a state level, and we can’t win at the state level unless there’s overwhelming support across the state, so none of my ideas address changing state law.

My ideas aren’t meant to stop someone from getting a citation for missing some catalytic converters, if indeed they are missing them. My ideas are geared towards making it fiscally difficult for local PO’s to write FRIVOLOUS vehicle equipment citations. I want the police patrolling my neighborhood making sure no one breaks into my home. I don’t want their focus to be on pulling over and citing cars just because they have big exhaust tips, and nothing more.

 

We both agree that the money from fines is being put back into the system. Without this money, we would have to have a higher tax rate. Let the ones that are messing up pay the price, not everyone. BTW: Giving the largest source of revenue for the city a tax break is just economics. It encourages them to stay and gives them more money to expand and ultimately this money will trickle back into the system but in a larger amount. Oh and No on Prop 87! In 2002 we were paying 50 cents per gallon in taxes.

Again, most cops are pretty educated on the vehicle code. But only letting a small group of officers be allowed to write citations would still hurt the system. When on patrol, cops can use vehicle violations to justify pulling over someone and see if there is a bigger problem going on. Just as if a cop wanted to pull someone over because something doesn't seem right, they'll wait for the 'suspect' to make an illegal lane change or something very pitty. I am assuming you aren't a criminal like myself and maybe thats why you feel like your car is a higher priority because you are normal law-abiding citizen like the rest of us unlike a crack dealer. I'm sure the crack dealer doesn't feel safer selling dope than driving his car that doesn't have cats.

 

drug dealers mdrive geo's and do 5under everywhere they go because they are paranoid. trust me, some of the people i went to HS live in midtown and sling coke

 

To my knowledge, no city or county in California has ever had to increase taxes because their traffic safety revenue (money made from traffic fines and such) has declined, nor should there ever be, because the amount a city receives from it is fairly small compared to their main revenue sources, such as property and business taxes. If a government entity ever needs to do this, you’d better believe they’re also in the news because they’re nearly bankrupt. I guarantee you will not see taxes raised because there are no revenues made from vehicle equipment violations.

Police have a good working knowledge of common civil codes they have to enforce, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they interpret them the way they should. Remember, they are not attorneys, and the highest level of minimum education required is almost always high school diploma or equivalent. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard that someone got a ticket for their exhaust because the PO said anything other than stock is illegal (misinterpretation of CVC 27151).

I understand that the PO’s use traffic stops for purposes other than the legal reason they were stopped for in the first place. I listen to rap You’ll also notice that I never said that PO’s wouldn’t be able to pull anyone over for equipment violations. I basically said that they shouldn’t be able to write a citation for smog equipment violations if they don't have the proper training (such as ASE certification). PO’s wouldn’t even be able to tell if someone has smog equipment violations until they open the hood, so they can still get pulled over for having loud exhausts. The teeth, or power of what I’m proposing, is that even if someone is cited for a loud exhaust, or missing cat converter, the city wouldn’t get any money from either fines or as an added statistic for federal and/or state funding. If a PO chooses to give someone a ticket for those things, they are actually doing it for public safety, not because it means more money. When this happens, priority is shifted away from these activities because they start depressing the cost:benefit factor, but it doesn’t mean that they won’t ever do these types of traffic stops.

I feel the need to do something because I’d rather not be harassed. I'm not necessarily the one to form the lobby group, but if my ideas can help, I'll do what I can. A lot of people who do not engage in street racing, but have cars that appear to be illegally modified, have been ticketed. In my 10+ years of driving, I’ve never had a collision that was my fault, or any type of traffic violation, and this is with an annual mileage of somewhere between 25-30k annual miles in the last six years nearly all over California. I’m very much aware that driving is a privilege, not a right. But, I believe my right to be left alone if I’m not breaking any laws outweigh the city’s need to make me a potential revenue source or political trophy. Our cars (peformance imports in general) are high priority on the PO’s watch list because they said so on the news, and they’ve exemplified it through action with a high number citations just within the last year, and through highly publicized and highly funded programs training other law enforcement agencies how to “profile” street racers.

No one is more sick of reading about people being pulled over than I am. But, ignoring that there is a problem with how PO’s are going about giving citations is big mistake, in my opinion.

 

How about the street racers stop street racing and drawing attention to what in the eyes of the average citizen is what my car looks like.

I've said this before. When the cops stop finding actual equipment violations then we'll stop getting 'harassed'.

For every poor guy like me just mindin' his own business that gets tagged there's plenty of stoopid *******, wigger, nip, gook, flip, ricer, gangsta wannabees who deserve a citation or three. (because of their equipment violations and/or retarded driving, not because of racial profiling).

got VTEC?

 

I couldn't agree more with what Blegacy is saying, PO's are just doing their job, albeit sometimes with an agenda that is being pressed on them by PO chief, who is in turn being pressed by City Council, who is obviously having many a complaint come their way by John T. Citizen.

B, I know in your post that you said you may not necassarily be the one to form the lobby, and your ideas can help. well, my question to you is, why not. I see no one here more informed on the subject (not that there isn't anyone), and you seem to have a way with words on the subject. God knows that i have looked over vehicle codes and read legal interpretations of VC's countless times, but it doesn't come naturally to me.

People, i think the main point of all this, is if we want a change (at a local/county level) there has to be involvement. Things don't change overnight and definitely not with just two people waving their would be political hands at the lawmakers. I am standing even with Blegacy when he says, "I feel the need to do something because I’d rather not be harassed."