http://perrinperformance.com/product...=18&category=3

I was interested in it today so I went and did a bit of research and came upon perrin's new injection system. It looks pretty nice, and I think it would work out decently as well. Does anyone have personal experience with it? I am only running stage 2 right now, but I was planning on getting a protune soon, and if I did install this kit I would obviously wait until I had it on so that I could get tuned for it as well. Do you think that I would still notice a good power gain with just stage 2? I'm kinda going back and fourth with this, and rather than install a bigger turbo at this point, I was thinking this might be a good alternative source of more power, and a safe one at that. I figure as long as the system works like it says it does, I won't have to worry that much about my tank running dry or the pump or nozzle malfunctioning and me not knowing it. Please, someone persuade me .

 

Water or methanol injection does not add power. Period. Anyone who tells you this fundamentally misunderstands the concept, or is selling the product for a living.

Water injection helps to suppress detonation. Methanol is actually preferrable, but a pure methanol mixture is corrosive to rubber and plastic, and thus will eat seals and tubes over time. By supressing detonation, you can safely add a bit more boost to an existing setup. However, if your current setup is already nearing its peak efficiency you won't be able to just add boost to it and get more power; for instance, if you're pushing a pump-gas tune on the stock turbo, adding water injection would get minimal gains.

There is also another issue a lot of these add-on kits ignore: humidity is actually a significant factor in how well these kits work. If your incoming air is already saturated with water (say, 80% humidity) then there is very little chance that you are going to be able to evaporate the injected water and cool that intake charge. You're asking your car's ECU to compensate for intake density changes on a daily basis, and it is designed to train itself over weeks and months.

If you're only at a stage 2 setup, this would be wasted money. Getting a FMIC would have a similar effect. If you're looking to wedge a 20G in there and run 20psi of boost, it would make more sense. In my experience you've got to be running out on the ragged edge of what the block can handle before you need water injection. The shop that tuned my car cranks out 400+whp WRX (yes, 2.0l) and STIs every week and they've never installed a water/meth setup (or NOS).

Get a CO2 cooler ring for your intercooler -- probably just as effective, and a 5-lb tank will last you three months.

 

Hehe yea earlier I was in one of those weird willing to experiment modding moods. :x those are dangerous. Realistically I'm going to be doing suspension wheel and tire work before any more power mods, aside from a lightened crank pulley and a protune. Thanks for knocking some sense into me, I was hoping someone would .

 

Don't get me wrong, it can definitely do something for you -- I've heard of people running 23psi of boost on the stock STI turbo with meth injection -- but I don't think that would be particularly streetable or live much longer than 6 months of occasional track use. A friend of mine is an engineer who used to work for GM, and worked on a series of cars back in the '80s which were turbo big-displacement engines with water injection replacing (as in, taking the place of) intercoolers. He said they never were able to get them to daily driver status; the water injection volume and spray pattern would radically change according to temperature, humidity and even how dirty the intake air filter was.

In mild applications, the water/meth injection acts as an octane booster, with some kits claiming that they turn 91 octane gas into 101 "race fuel". Even if that is the case, you'd need a specialized tune to take advantage of that (of course) and you're risking serious trouble if you get your water/meth ratio wrong, or if you run dry in the middle of a trip or drag pass.

Personally I've been giving serious consideration to a Co2 spray ring for my TMIC. You can get a 5lb bottle charged up at a paintball shop for $3.00, and if you have a Delta Dash or similar system (I've got an ECUTEK data monitor) you can get the CO2 to auto-trigger only when you are above a certain level of boost (say, 8 PSI) when you really need it -- thus it rarely gets used. I know an EVO owner with a similar setup, and he's a leadfoot but still makes a bottle last 2-3 months.

 

Here's something that peaked my curiosity. From what you've mention however it sounds irrelevant.

Wouldn't drastically cooling of the i/c with co2 cause some condensation inside the i/c? I don't know if spraying co2 on the i/c insted of water would be enough to cool the air down to it's dew point, that's why ask.

 

It has been pretty standard practice in turbo drag racing to place a bag of ice or even dry ice on the intercooler between drag passes, and that has to be a drastic temp drop (and is sometimes even done at a low idle or when the engine is off). If condensation occurs, at least they don't seem too concerned... I think by the time it hits the actual intake manifold any water would already be just a puff of steam. I think I would be more concerned about the extreme cold (C02 is cold, but not as cold as NOS spray) would have on the radiator core; freezing and thawing the core over time might really weaken it, and they are made by design out of thin fins of aluminum...

Back on the methanol/water injection topic, I don't want to be negative on the entire concept -- there are a lot of people with impressive results -- I just want to emphasize that (like NOS) it is just part of an overall power-adding strategy, and not a standalone bolt-on. If you were going to strap on a Garett or PE-18 turbo and a FMIC and 800cc injectors and a host of other supporting mods, then yes, water/meth injection would add a safety margin to a really extreme tune, just like going to 95 or 119 octane would.

 

I've been running meth injection for well over a year now. With a proper tune you can increase power sustantially even on a stock turbo. I wouldn't necessarily recommend it for a stock turbo but it will add power once tuned. My setup(20G) gained over 40wtq down low & 15-20wtq & whp thru-out the rest of the map.

One thing people over look is that methanol is a fuel(w/ a relative octane of over 100), so if you've got shotty gas you can run a very small injection amount to add better fuel to the mix, no different than adding xylene to you gas tank. I've read where many in Alaska run alky injection due to the fact they can only get like 89 octane or some ****. With the small amount being injected the ECU will add timing as it learns it has a better fuel mix thus making more power.

Being that you're adding a higher octane fuel, you can lean out your fuel maps, increase your timing & raise boost a bit.

Jeremy

 

You will make power if you get tuned for Water+Meth injection. However I plan on using it as a safety net to prevent any knocking.

 

The plus about the water/meth injection kit is they will help alot
against detonation happening.

 

yep

 

Yes, it can do that, but so can a bigger intercooler, higher-octane gas, a bigger turbo on lower PSI, intercooler water/CO2/NOS sprayer and many other tuning strategies. Water/Alchohol injection is certainly an interesting concept, but I do always wonder why it doesn't come standard on more turbo cars if it is really so beneficial and has no drawbacks... I wonder if the added weight of carrying around the extra water and alchohol (a 5-gal tank weighs almost 50 lbs) is an issue?

I read an amazing article about the Champ Car engine, a modified Cosworth powerplant putting out over 700hp. They run on pure methanol and inject almost 600cc/hour of methanol right into the intake of the cold side of the turbo, less than a foot away from the actual intake manifold. They said the cars can run 3 to 5 races without a rebuild, but the chilling effect from the methanol is so strong that the valves and piston heads get heat-shocked from being constantly cooled by the intake charge and then superheated during combustion.

 

My guess on the stock-option alky injection is that the system is 'hardly' maintenance free....you need to keep the tank level up & replace filters often.

Almost no added weight from the water/meth tank. I use the OEM windshield washer tank(~1 gallon), & have an aux. windshield washer tank(~8 oz) for actual windshield washer fluid. The pump does weigh ~3lbs or so. I only use ~1 gal every 2-3 months, this is my daily driver & I'm running ~350cc/min alky nozzle. The mix is less than $3/gallon.