Anybody use water injection?
09-24-2003, 12:41 AM
#1
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Anybody use water inection?
09-28-2003, 09:59 PM
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Originally posted by BAN SUVS
Water injection is a band-aid solution to improper fuel management. Save your money for something more useful.
Water injection is a band-aid solution to improper fuel management. Save your money for something more useful.
What exactly is your definition of fuel management? Do you believe there is some inherent benefit to dumping fuel into a motor that will never be consumed in combustion? That extra fuel is displacing air. Anytime your AFR's are richer than maximum BMEP (between 12:1 and 13:1 on all FI motors, the exact level varies but it is never richer than 12:1) you are using fuel to manage temperature and fuel is a lousy temperature management tool. So it would be more appropriate to say anytime you are dumping fuel to suppress knock that is the real band-aid for improper heat and power management.
That type of blanket false statement that you made is the danger of internet boards.
However, if you have specific information that can adequately address over 70 years of studies indicating the exact opposite of what you just said - help the board and especially those who are using water injection quite successfully with something more than a quote from some tuner that just didn't know any better.
Specifically your response on the water injection section of my paper would be much appreciated:
WI writeup
Last edited by jehcpa; 09-28-2003 at 10:01 PM.
09-29-2003, 04:06 AM
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Yes, I wrote the paper. Thank you for the kind words. It has received a lot of feedback and since last Wed/Thurs has been updated to clarify some issues as well as to correct some items I didn't have quite right. No matter how much anyone thinks they know, someone knows more - so I always am seeking convincing and compelling evidence to change my mind. Jon and hotrod on NASIOC were a huge help nudging me to the right places to update the paper. Most changes were to knock and WI sections if you last read the paper before Wed.
Last night I added last updated sections to each paper so those interested can quickly see if it was updated since they were last read - unfortunately they all reflect an update last night just from adding that section.
A guide on implementation ideas for the WRX will be coming soon - I tried it no less than 3 ways so far and it keeps getting better a little at a time - eventually it will be a real clean install.
Last night I added last updated sections to each paper so those interested can quickly see if it was updated since they were last read - unfortunately they all reflect an update last night just from adding that section.
A guide on implementation ideas for the WRX will be coming soon - I tried it no less than 3 ways so far and it keeps getting better a little at a time - eventually it will be a real clean install.
Last edited by jehcpa; 09-29-2003 at 04:18 AM.
09-29-2003, 09:09 AM
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Thanks for putting together a good technical paper on a system that has real benefits for our detonation prone motors.
I am very dissapointed to see a Vishnu employee posting misinformation like this without any technical reason whatsoever. It is just as unprofessional as their bashing of TurboXSs use of the noble gas law. Shiv is a great tuner, but they really need to stop bashing anything that doesn't fit in their tuning methodology.
I am very dissapointed to see a Vishnu employee posting misinformation like this without any technical reason whatsoever. It is just as unprofessional as their bashing of TurboXSs use of the noble gas law. Shiv is a great tuner, but they really need to stop bashing anything that doesn't fit in their tuning methodology.
09-29-2003, 10:09 AM
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FWIW, we've now custom tuned 3 modified WRX with and without water injection on our dyno-- under controlled conditions. In ever case, the WI proved to be essentially useless in terms of absolute power output. In fact, output suffers measurably. Not saying that there is no reasonable application for WI. Just saying that we have yet to see it for WRXs we have tested (a couple of stage 1s and one stage 2).
My 2c,
Shiv
________
Full melt hash
My 2c,
Shiv
________
Full melt hash
Last edited by Vishnu; 03-07-2011 at 04:07 AM.
09-29-2003, 10:13 AM
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Originally posted by mr. m
if its a band aid solution to improper fuel management then why do wrc cars use it?
if its a band aid solution to improper fuel management then why do wrc cars use it?
my 2c,
Shiv
________
Buy Portable Vaporizer
Last edited by Vishnu; 03-07-2011 at 04:08 AM.
09-29-2003, 10:15 AM
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Hi Shiv,
Thanks for the response.
I don't think anyone is saying that WI gives you power, rather it allows an engine close to detonation to be taken farther. For example take a engine taken to the edge on 91 octane - WI will allow you to run more boost/timing/leaner AFR - this will yield more power. On the other hand, if you are running race gas on a fully optimized tune then I would doubt WI would do a whole lot for you (but race gas is a heck of a lot more expensive than distilled H20).
Thanks for the response.
I don't think anyone is saying that WI gives you power, rather it allows an engine close to detonation to be taken farther. For example take a engine taken to the edge on 91 octane - WI will allow you to run more boost/timing/leaner AFR - this will yield more power. On the other hand, if you are running race gas on a fully optimized tune then I would doubt WI would do a whole lot for you (but race gas is a heck of a lot more expensive than distilled H20).
09-29-2003, 11:03 AM
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Shiv, you know I respect your knowledge, ability and products and without getting into issues that remain open...
There have been many successful implementations where WI has proven effective in permitting tuning to higher power levels among UTEC users. The tuning tool is not the issue and EcuTek is significantly more capable of tuning to take advantage of the knock suppression from WI. So noone should take the ClubWRX post for instance to imply more than is there.
The danger of EcuTek with water injection is there is little way to adjust quickly to a water injection failure as opposed to just a bad tank of gas. I have only seen one of the results you refer to but it would be interesting to see the IDCs and AFR from the end result. I question whether to protect your customers you are leaving more on the table than you do with some other tunes. For instance I have seen the results of your race fuel tunes and on 91 octane with a properly implemented water injection system there is every reason to be able to provide the same tune and performance. I don't know what other reason you would experience the results you have other than a safety margin that would prevent a customer from severe damage if water injection failed and they did not respond appropriately to it.
Ed.
There have been many successful implementations where WI has proven effective in permitting tuning to higher power levels among UTEC users. The tuning tool is not the issue and EcuTek is significantly more capable of tuning to take advantage of the knock suppression from WI. So noone should take the ClubWRX post for instance to imply more than is there.
The danger of EcuTek with water injection is there is little way to adjust quickly to a water injection failure as opposed to just a bad tank of gas. I have only seen one of the results you refer to but it would be interesting to see the IDCs and AFR from the end result. I question whether to protect your customers you are leaving more on the table than you do with some other tunes. For instance I have seen the results of your race fuel tunes and on 91 octane with a properly implemented water injection system there is every reason to be able to provide the same tune and performance. I don't know what other reason you would experience the results you have other than a safety margin that would prevent a customer from severe damage if water injection failed and they did not respond appropriately to it.
Ed.
09-29-2003, 11:47 AM
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Here are my findings. Take what you will from it
Adding WI (even the smallest Aquamist jet available) on the WRXs we've custom dyno tuned (without WI) immediately resulted in a massive across-the-board torque loss. Not surprising considering the additional of a non-combustible in the combustion chamber. I then proceeded to add in timing, pull fuel and raise boost. I was able to recover most of the torque loss the WI induced by running 3-5 degrees more advance, 2-3 more psi of boost (as permittable by the stock and VF30 turbos) and substantially leaner fuel curves (as lean as 12.5:1 throughout most of the power curve). But in the end, the results with WI were still inconclusive. I suspect this is because the applications we've tried WI on were already operating efficiently with plently of advance.
In an application that is suffering from high charge temps, tons of back-pressure and/or lots of other nastiness, WI can allow a few extra degrees of advance on a car that would be otherwise struggling to run reasonable advance numbers. In such an application, the extra advance should results in a large torque gain that would offset the torque loss caused by adding water into the air/fuel charge. In such an application, WI would prove to be useful.
Just my 2c,
Shiv
________
PLYMOUTH PLAZA HISTORY
Adding WI (even the smallest Aquamist jet available) on the WRXs we've custom dyno tuned (without WI) immediately resulted in a massive across-the-board torque loss. Not surprising considering the additional of a non-combustible in the combustion chamber. I then proceeded to add in timing, pull fuel and raise boost. I was able to recover most of the torque loss the WI induced by running 3-5 degrees more advance, 2-3 more psi of boost (as permittable by the stock and VF30 turbos) and substantially leaner fuel curves (as lean as 12.5:1 throughout most of the power curve). But in the end, the results with WI were still inconclusive. I suspect this is because the applications we've tried WI on were already operating efficiently with plently of advance.
In an application that is suffering from high charge temps, tons of back-pressure and/or lots of other nastiness, WI can allow a few extra degrees of advance on a car that would be otherwise struggling to run reasonable advance numbers. In such an application, the extra advance should results in a large torque gain that would offset the torque loss caused by adding water into the air/fuel charge. In such an application, WI would prove to be useful.
Just my 2c,
Shiv
________
PLYMOUTH PLAZA HISTORY
Last edited by Vishnu; 03-07-2011 at 04:08 AM.