[QUOTE=jdepould]the thing is, the americans are still using old technology, my mom just got an 05 grand prix, it's like buying a new car and getting a used one, granted it's a fleet car, so it doesn't matter much. however, she recently had a power steering issue, the fluid was low, but there was no leak anywhere, the mechanic said it probably came like that from the factory. from the factory!??! if they can't be bothered to fill the PS resevoir to spec at the factory then what else aren't they doing?[/QUOTE]

They're hiding the same things that Subaru is with their crap paint jobs. It's called "overall quality."

Don't forget that [i]people[/i] work on assembly lines. [i]People[/i] make mistakes. Not every GP that rolled off the assembly line had a low power steering fluid level.

BTW, GM's paint jobs are LIGHT YEARS better than what you'll find on a Subaru.

[QUOTE=herrjr]I just saw this, and had to make a correction. It's true that Henry Ford invented the assembly line process; however, the person that invented the automobile was actually Karl Benz, who in 1885 created the Benz Tri-Car (btw, it's really worth seeing it(and other notable MB models) if you ever get a chance to go to Stuttgart).

The thrashing of all domestics as a whole is somewhat undeserved lately, since JD Power has mentioned that certain GM models assembled in specific plants have been rated as being the most reliable and problem free; more so than some Japanese and German luxury models. It seems that a conception (albeit somewhat a true one) has developed from the late 70's onward that all domestics are garbage and only imports, specifically those from Japan, are worth purchasing. It is also worth noting that alot of those "imports" mentioned in CR were actually assembled here. Unfortunately, the only domestics people believe are worth purchasing are trucks and suvs (side note: a friend bought a Tahoe a couple years ago, and it turns out that it was actually built in Mexico!!!) Anyhow, some people have had great import experiences and some bad ones too. Likewise, some have had great domestic car experiences and some bad ones as well. The problem is that when the market shifted in the 80's, the design of imports as a whole was vastly superior to that of domestics, so this competitive edge combined with the growing belief that all domestic cars were crap in comparison have resulted in the problems that Ford and GM are now facing today. I for one would not like to see either company fold, but the sad reality is that if they don't unload all those pensions weighing them down, then we may eventually have to expect that our two remaining domestic auto companies will be taken over completely by Toyota or Honda, or disappear entirely.[/QUOTE]

You're absolutely correct! I don't think anyone could've said it better!

The [b]ONLY[/b] area that I find a difference between Japanese and domestic manufacturers are in the interiors. I've [b][i]NEVER[/i][/b] had reliability issues with my domestics.

I have a 1994 Camaro with 170,000 miles on the engine, and not all of those miles were "easy" miles. I anxiously await to see if my STi accumulates that many miles.

Oh, and BTW, that "piece of crap" domestic motor starts every day with no ticks, tocks, or oil upon start-up. And while I'm at it, I'll just mention that the oil isn't ever low when I check it. I can't say the same for my 2005 STi with 14,800 miles on it.

Yeah, Japanese quality. :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=Sinister Subaru]You're absolutely correct! I don't think anyone could've said it better!

The [b]ONLY[/b] area that I find a difference between Japanese and domestic manufacturers are in the interiors. I've [b][i]NEVER[/i][/b] had reliability issues with my domestics.

I have a 1994 Camaro with 170,000 miles on the engine, and not all of those miles were "easy" miles. I anxiously await to see if my STi accumulates that many miles.

Oh, and BTW, that "piece of crap" domestic motor starts every day with no ticks, tocks, or oil upon start-up. And while I'm at it, I'll just mention that the oil isn't ever low when I check it. I can't say the same for my 2005 STi with 14,800 miles on it.

Yeah, Japanese quality. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
lots of people dont trust push rod engines...
personally... i dont give a ****.
Ive stood face to face with some chick driving a firebird with a sign in the window that said 'no forgen cars', explaining to her how her car was assembled in canada, and parts made in mexico, asking her just how she thinks its not forgen.

I also have defended the subarus to people that think they are over-rated and undependible when they cant come up with an example of an awd car in the same price range pushing the same hp with the same level of quality and reliability...

Its all what you want I guess.
personally for me when buying a new car..... er... used car.. the subaru was the only used car on the market that felt nutral. many cars would handel well but be slow as poo. others would be quick but handel crappy. (all in my price range mind you)

[QUOTE=cudaeh]lots of people dont trust push rod engines...
personally... i dont give a ****.
Ive stood face to face with some chick driving a firebird with a sign in the window that said 'no forgen cars', explaining to her how her car was assembled in canada, and parts made in mexico, asking her just how she thinks its not forgen.

I also have defended the subarus to people that think they are over-rated and undependible when they cant come up with an example of an awd car in the same price range pushing the same hp with the same level of quality and reliability...

Its all what you want I guess.
personally for me when buying a new car..... er... used car.. the subaru was the only used car on the market that felt nutral. many cars would handel well but be slow as poo. others would be quick but handel crappy. (all in my price range mind you)[/QUOTE]

What it is, is that you get these ignorant jackasses that think pushrods are "old technology." :rolleyes:

Tell that to the ZO6 that just left the "high-tech" overhead cammed car 20 lengths in the rearview mirror......

Come to mention it, I'd like someone to name [B][i]ONE[/i][/b] PRODUCTION Japanese car (year doesn't matter) that has run in the 11s bone stock.....

[QUOTE=Sinister Subaru]What it is, is that you get these ignorant jackasses that think pushrods are "old technology." :rolleyes:

Tell that to the ZO6 that just left the "high-tech" overhead cammed car 20 lengths in the rearview mirror......

Come to mention it, I'd like someone to name [B][i]ONE[/i][/b] PRODUCTION Japanese car (year doesn't matter) that has run in the 11s bone stock.....[/QUOTE]
yeah, I got nothing.
i found this tho
[url]http://www.albeedigital.com/supercoupe/articles/0-60times.html[/url]
intresting info. wouldnt quote it as hard numbers but seems like good genral refrence.
I cant think of too many japaneese supercars (equivalant to our viper, zo6 ect.) closest they seem to have is the nsx, evo 9, gt-r, sti.
seems to touch again on my theory of the japanese style car and the american.
realy no way to quantify the two. its like racing the 1/4 with the zo6 and the nsx head to head where the nsx would get crushed. then racing them on tight road corses where the zo6 wouldnt have enough room to use all the power.

but yeah the whole pushrods=infirror technology thing is insain... It's just a diffrent way to do things.

Now, if they ever profect rotery valves than it will all be infirror technology.

would this count?
[url]http://www.arielmotor.co.uk/04/frames.htm[/url]
its a uk car using a honda motor.
this car is hot!!
I so want one.

[QUOTE=Sinister Subaru]Come to mention it, I'd like someone to name [B][i]ONE[/i][/b] PRODUCTION Japanese car (year doesn't matter) that has run in the 11s bone stock.....[/QUOTE]

The R34 GT-R Z tune built by Nissan Motorsports had a quarter mile of low 10's BONE STOCK. :)
[url]http://sportcompactcarweb.com/features/0505_scc_skyline/[/url]

[QUOTE=cudaeh]yeah, I got nothing.
i found this tho
[url]http://www.albeedigital.com/supercoupe/articles/0-60times.html[/url]
intresting info. wouldnt quote it as hard numbers but seems like good genral refrence.
I cant think of too many japaneese supercars (equivalant to our viper, zo6 ect.) closest they seem to have is the nsx, evo 9, gt-r, sti.
seems to touch again on my theory of the japanese style car and the american.
realy no way to quantify the two. its like racing the 1/4 with the zo6 and the nsx head to head where the nsx would get crushed. then racing them on tight road corses where the zo6 wouldnt have enough room to use all the power.

but yeah the whole pushrods=infirror technology thing is insain... It's just a diffrent way to do things.

Now, if they ever profect rotery valves than it will all be infirror technology.[/QUOTE]

Saying that pushrod motors are antiquated technology is like saying that gasoline motors are antiquated technology because there are hybrids in production.

I would agree with Camaros, Firebirds, and Mustangs being "out-dated" though, especially with their [i]LIVE AXLE[/i] suspensions. The American manufacturers claim that their fanbases of these cars [i]WANT[/i] live axle suspensions. :rolleyes: Sure, maybe [i]SOME[/i] racers do, but most people buy these cars and never hit the 1/4 track. These domestic manufacturers think Americans are dumb and are going to "buy" those lies.

I'm not buying it. It's to keep costs down. Until these domestic performance cars are fitted with up-to-date technology, they will never compete with the import cars in terms of sales. Let's be honest, the most affordable domestic performers are Camaros, Firebirds, and Mustangs. They're the "bread and butter" of the afforable domestic performance. Well, there's the GTO, but it also weighs 3700 lbs. While it does have an IRS, it's still a heavy pig of a car.

[QUOTE=Sinister Subaru]Well, there's the GTO, but it also weighs 3700 lbs. While it does have an IRS, it's still a heavy pig of a car.[/QUOTE]
test drove one today and I think I might buy it.
My impression.
suspension is too soft
shifter feels good
Need to get rid of that 'skip shift' that locks you out of 2ed gear above 3k and forces you into 3rd (usualy when your half way thru a left hand turn).
not as peppy as I remember my ls-1 bird but it was nice to have a v-8 under the hood again.
the back end snaped alot less than the birds.. think is a mix of the IRC and a little more weight above the rear wheels.
alot more room inside than the bird
and you sit up alot higher.
I think its a good comprmize between the sports car and the family car.

Not to bump the thread, as I think it is pretty well played out, but two things:

There are no Japanese 11-second cars because Japan has had, for many years, a policy of not releasing cars with more than 280bhp. For a very long time you couldn't find a JDM car with anything more than 200 hp, and 180 was much more common. When the NSX came out it had 198hp and was considered a "supercar" in Japan. They have never embraced the horsepower-monster ethic that America embraced in the muscle-car era.

Several of my friends have lived in Japan, and they'll tell you immediately why this is the case -- you can't find 1/4 mile of straight road anywhere in Japan. Every road is a twisted, curvy mess, and those that are straight are in a city and have a traffic light every 30 yards or so. If you brought a Corvette or Viper to Japan, you'd never get past third gear in or outside of town.

Also, the GTO is not a domestic car. It is a re-badged Holden, an Australian car made by Ford's Aussie division and shipped to the US. The version in Australia weighs 400 pounds less and has 80 more horsepower, as they have lower emissions requirements and safety requirements.

Ive driven quite a few Domestics lately that impressed me. The SRT8 Magnum is an incredible vehicle. Tons of power, insane stopping power, and some great handling for a car its size. Not to mention the unlimited potenial of modding that 6.1 liter hemi.

My complaints about the car are mainly astectic ones. With a $50k msrp it has a cheapo rubbermaid interoir, and platicy leather.

Of corse you can buy a STI or EVO for 35k dump another 15k into it and kill any SRT8.

[QUOTE=Steven@Coach]Ive driven quite a few Domestics lately that impressed me. The SRT8 Magnum is an incredible vehicle. Tons of power, insane stopping power, and some great handling for a car its size. Not to mention the unlimited potenial of modding that 6.1 liter hemi.

My complaints about the car are mainly astectic ones. With a $50k msrp it has a cheapo rubbermaid interoir, and platicy leather.

Of corse you can buy a STI or EVO for 35k dump another 15k into it and kill any SRT8.[/QUOTE]

Or put $15,000 into an SRT and kill any Ferrari. :D

.....At least in a straight line.....

[QUOTE=meilers]Not to bump the thread, as I think it is pretty well played out, but two things:

There are no Japanese 11-second cars because Japan has had, for many years, a policy of not releasing cars with more than 280bhp. For a very long time you couldn't find a JDM car with anything more than 200 hp, and 180 was much more common. When the NSX came out it had 198hp and was considered a "supercar" in Japan. They have never embraced the horsepower-monster ethic that America embraced in the muscle-car era.

Several of my friends have lived in Japan, and they'll tell you immediately why this is the case -- you can't find 1/4 mile of straight road anywhere in Japan. Every road is a twisted, curvy mess, and those that are straight are in a city and have a traffic light every 30 yards or so. If you brought a Corvette or Viper to Japan, you'd never get past third gear in or outside of town.

Also, the GTO is not a domestic car. It is a re-badged Holden, an Australian car made by Ford's Aussie division and shipped to the US. The version in Australia weighs 400 pounds less and has 80 more horsepower, as they have lower emissions requirements and safety requirements.[/QUOTE]
Holden is a GM division, not Ford.

[QUOTE=pbchief2]Holden is a GM division, not Ford.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I realized that about five seconds after I hit Submit.

Technically the Pontiac GTO is a rebadged Holden Monaro with a new front end and much quieter exhaust (among a bunch of other little changes).

[url]http://www.herelectricvehicle.com/monaro.html[/url]

The GTO has also been dumped by GM; this will be the last model year (2006).

[url]http://www.autoblog.com/2006/02/21/gm-officially-dumps-the-pontiac-gto/[/url]

[QUOTE=meilers]Yeah, I realized that about five seconds after I hit Submit.

Technically the Pontiac GTO is a rebadged Holden Monaro with a new front end and much quieter exhaust (among a bunch of other little changes).

[url]http://www.herelectricvehicle.com/monaro.html[/url]

The GTO has also been dumped by GM; this will be the last model year (2006).

[url]http://www.autoblog.com/2006/02/21/gm-officially-dumps-the-pontiac-gto/[/url][/QUOTE]

The GTO hasn't been dumped. It is coming back as a domestically manufactured vehicle in a few years.