meilers

So, I've been reading that Consumer Reports issue that everyone is posting about, in which domestic cars (USA made and designed) are failing to impress and Japanese cars (especially Subaru) are earning high marks.

My 02 WRX is currently in the shop (rear differential problem) so I've been driving a Buick Lucerne for the last five days, with just 500 miles on the odometer. Everything about this car explains exactly why domestics do so poorly, and why GM is teetering on the edge of bankruptcy. What it doesn't explain is why American car designers and manufacturers are making such basic errors and ididotic design decisions almost one hundred years after one of our own invented the automobile itself!

The Lucerne is not a performance car, by any means; it is a midrange luxury car with a 3.8l V6 (197 hp) aimed at competing with the Toyota Avalon, Infinity G35 and other $28k sedans. On the website they claim "luxury car with performance handling."

Nothing about this car is luxurious. It is decked out entirely in fake-leather-patterned plastic with fabric seats. Plastic "burlwood" covers about 1/16th of the huge, slab-like dash, but other than that nothing is the slightest bit "lux" in style or finish. The Legacy GT is a work of artistry in comparison. The seats are too wide, too high from the floor and are unusually slick. The only luxury item worthy of note is a 13-speaker stereo (which ironically does not support 5.1 surround sound) and an in-dash CD player that cannot be swapped out for an aftermarket stereo (no standard mount location).

The basic ergonomics of the car are terrible. I'm average height, but once I get the wheel and seat adjusted to my settings I find my right knee pressed against the underside of the dash when I am resting my foot on the accelerator. There is no rest for your left foot; it is left floating around the footwell. The steering wheel is surprisingly close to the driver-side door. Driver visibility is terrible; the windshield is at least 1/3 larger than my WRX, but the raked-back angle and GIANT A-pillars leave you with a narrow, myopic view which is further interrupted by the giant hood. Turning to your left to look over your shoulder is worthless, as another big roof pillar and the seatbelt mechanism totally block your view out the left rear window. I've never been in a car with so much glass that is so poorly used. Blame the Chrysler 300's "gangster windows" for the shrinking visibility range of American cars.

American luxury cars, since the days of Cadillac, have had mushy, boat-like handling and an outrageous turning radius, and the Lucerne is no exception. Performance, my *** -- this is one of the most lethargic, whiny and sluggish vehicles I've ever driven. The website is backed with buzzwords such as "magnetic ride control" and "Stabilitrak" but I've seen no evidence of these in action, and I've pushed the car pretty hard. The tires squeal at the slightest input; even a normal turn at the speed limit earns a loud squeal from the front tires, a sign of an underdamped suspension that is slow to respond to steering input (as well as tires with weak sidewalls). The power steering is cranked up to the point that you can steer the car with a fingertip, yet it passes no road feel back to the driver, resulting in a numb, loose feeling. You feel every bit of the car's 4000lbs while turning -- the body roll is at least five degrees or more. Sitting at a stoplight or waiting for a left turn, a single car driving by will make the entire Lucerne rock on its springs like the struts are shot. This is a car with less than 500 miles on it!

The car's high center of gravity and poor weight balance is also clearly evident, especially when the car is pushed a bit. The back end of the car feels weightless, useless for bringing the rear around. The rear suspension is springy, numb and feels like it is being dragged by the front wheels. Even in wet conditions I was never able to trigger the traction control or make the car feel like anything else than a sloppy, wiggly mess.

You'd also never guess there is a 3.8 liter engine under the hood; the powertrain is oh so American, seemingly disconnected with the actual act of driving a car and always a step behind. You can pull away from a stoplight well enough, for a two-ton car, but once you are rolling there is almost no power to be had. Once in third gear you can force a shift down to second, where you will finally get the RPM you need, but this requires slamming the pedal to the floor at just the right moment.

I drove my wife's Legacy GT wagon (1997, 60k on the odometer) after a few hours in the Buick and the difference in feel was amazing. The GT felt more solid, more stable, tracked more predictably and stiffened up when pushed. The power delivery is much smoother and more predictable, the sightlines are better and the A/C was colder.

I'm not even going to bother comparing the Lucerne to my WRX.

My question is -- why? Why, in the country that invented the automobile and the assembly line, are we still making such junk? A car clearly designed by comittee, the Lucerne is a mishmash of features that don't fit together and clear sacrifices in visibility and handling for the traditional "numb and floaty" feeling of the American car. Why can't Detroit learn any lessons? You'd think they'd get tired of having their asses handed to them by Kia and Hyundai and just buy one of their cars, tear it apart and figure out how they do it. After a week in the Buick I'm just numb with disbelief.

case1

I love my brother's 03 2500 HD with the LT package, awesome truck, really comfortable seats and good quality interior overall

His 01 GT mustang I love also, it is what it is, solid 9" rear end (undeniably bullet proof), there's nothing else like bangin gears with a fully built V8, 11" rear rim and tire combo and chirping 3rd gear

1sicwrx

iTrader: (5)

I also share your concern about the poor quality of SOME American cars, I don't think it's fair to generalize that all American cars are garbage. There are many American cars old and new that are very good but it is clear that American cars these day lack all around legitimate quality. I'm not going to make a list of all the good and bad cars American manufacturers but in the last year we have all witnessed Ford and GM lay- off 60,000 people and close nearly 25 plants between the two. There are two reasons for this, the American government refuses to impose tariffs on imported cars from Japan, Germany etc. If the government imposed tariffs it would make Japanease cars much more expensive giving the AVERAGE consumer to take serious consideration in buying an American car. It's very hard for American companies to compete when you get a better car from Japan that includes a lot of options and accessories that American cars don't offer and if American cars do offer it, it comes at a very high price. The average American is not stupid and can figure it out, more options, a more effecient car for a cheaper price than an American car, any average consumer will do what is right for their pocket and this has led to the down fall of American cars, if no one is buying the American car the quality will go down as we all can see. The American Government needs to raise tariffs to balance the market and watch out for The Big Three to keep them in business, it is their obligation to do so. What will happen if we lose our ability to manufacture our own cars in a time of war? Like in WWII, GM and Ford built our tanks, planes and other vehicles for our troops in Europe, Japan and abroad, if we lose that ability we cannot depend on forgein entities to come to our aid and I personally don't trust the Chinese or Japanease to build things such as military equipment for our country, we must not out source our national security just for the sake of being allies with a couple of countries! They impose traffis on our cars, why can't we? Considering the state of the war on terror and the increasing hostility of the Middle East towards the West, we must keep our car companies in business to manufacture tanks and things of that nature as well as keeping the American economy a live or we will suffer consequences like other countires who have weak economies, weak militaries and are vulnerable to being dominated by other countires in every aspect and we will eventually self-destruct. It is a matter of national security whether you like American cars or not, there is a much broader issue than simply poorly engineered cars that lack quality.

Wingless Wonder

iTrader: (7)

We should not have to subsidize American car companies to keep them afloat. To do so would ensure that we would have a continuing selection of mediocre cars (in general) to choose from. I used to 'Buy American' until I found out that all U.S. car companies invest heavily in foreign manufacturing to diversify their portfolios. Hell, what's good enough for them is good enough for me. Make a good product and people will buy it.

--
0==WW==0
"…axles of evil…" - george w. bush

spirited

So why is it that we americans cant produce a car with more options and have it as effecient as foreign cars. It doesnt make sense to punish the people that are rolling out affordable quality cars and help out the people who are making mediocre cars gain profit. If someone else is stealing our business we should fight back by offering more, changing our profiles and how we do things, not tax them so much that people cant afford their cars and therefore have to afford american made cars.

jdepould

iTrader: (2)

so, basically, what you're saying is that, because other companies offer a better, cheaper product, we should feel bad for the companies that have more expensive, lower quality products and force the better, cheaper companies to charge more, because they have a better, cheaper product? Yeah capitalism, yeah!

Sinister Subaru

I've always had domestic cars and never had problems with them. I couldn't give less of a damn about the cheaper dashboard quality. My domestics have always been reliable.

And I can't believe somebody's actually whining about not liking a Buick Lucerne. They aren't made for people that like to drive enthusiastically. They're made for your freakin' grandparents.

As for Cadillacs of yesterday being mushy, that's what the American geezer wanted; a floaty and soft ride.

New Cadillacs are a different story. I've driven a brand new CTS and a brand new STS. Both of them were tight-riding cars. They weren't real performance-oriented, but they were far from "floaty."

You complain about American cars, yet your WRX (4 years old at the oldest) is in the shop for differential problems. Yeah, your car is the poster-child of reliability.

meilers

A rant isn't supposed to make sense, that is why you call it a rant.

I'm certainly not saying that just because one American car has disappointed me (actually add this one to the list of dozens, but I digress) that all domestic cars are crap -- I'm just shocked that, after all this time, American automakers can't hit an easy target.

The midsize luxury sedan is pretty much the core of the market; every single automaker has one as a flagship, from Acura to Hyundai to every domestic carmaker. Look at the Infiniti G35, the Lexus GS300, the Acura TSX, even the Maxima SE and a ton of other cars as models of what can be achieved in this market in the $28-$32k range. Hell, BMW and Mercedes are dipping into that market. Why can't America compete?

The thing I found most alarming about the Buick was its handling -- why, oh why, can't we get this sorted? You'd think after the advent of CAD systems and 90+ years of suspension geometry we'd have suspension solved -- just nailed, down to a science. Getting a car to respond to steering and braking input should just be a drop-in fix. There is zero excuse for putting out a car, even a 3800-lb one, with such poor control. The thing sails on the highway like a boat at sea. As Sinister notes, this is a car for old men -- I sure as hell wouldn't want an old man, with lousy reflexes and poor vision, behind the wheel of that car. Farmer's markets, beware! (sick joke, so sue me.)

Certainly the US can build an awesome car. I was totally blown away after a ride in the new 'Vette, as I was in the Mustang GT (though I was bored to tears with the V6 version). Consistency is the problem here, and that's why car buyers are fleeing to foreign builders. EVERY SINGLE SUBARU got a "recommend" from Consumer Reports; what domestic carmaker can say that about their range of vehicles? I've ridden in the new Hyundai Sonata (the Accord copy, not the Mercedes copy) and I was extremely impressed -- the Koreans are learning very, very fast. The new Civic SI is wonderful, for what it does. Even the redesign Altima is shaping up nicely and handles very well, as does the Scion TC. USA has to step up their game.

Yes, my rear differential is toast. However, it isn't Subaru's fault -- I'm putting 110 more horsepower through it than it was originally designed to support (and I drove it 20 miles with a mostly-flat tire, which certainly didn't help). Operator error, all the way. My wife's Legacy GT blew the cam gasket and head gasket last year and threw up oil all over the garage floor, but that's a known issue with that model year (97). No automaker is perfect -- find someone with a running Datsun .

My point, though I took a long time making it, was that I feel strongly that domestic automakers have the brains, technology and workers to put out a world-class automobile, and yet they consistently screw it up for no damn reason and it frustrates the heck out of me. I'd love to buy American again; they just haven't built my car yet. That Mustang GT almost had me convinced, but I need those two rear doors.

1sicwrx

iTrader: (5)

The point is, that they dump their crap on our shores for almost nothing while our manufacturers get stiffed. I should have clarified my opinion more eloquently, it's not just cheap cars getting dumped on our shores, it is also the auto unions sucking the companies dry, they are just as a big problem as the quality of American cars. GM and Ford pay way too much on a variety of social programs for their current employees, ex-employees, and retired employees, I read some figure that $2,000 is billed to every car built for health care costs alone. How can you have a profitable company when 2 grand is being chopped right out of the car as soon as it is built? Well, you can't. Your cars will be more expensive and less desirable, then no one will buy them, then the quality of the product will worsen, and then you will get hit with the label that the car brand is crap and the ability to rebound from bad publicity will take a life time no matter what you do. Our government should impose tariffs to make the market more competitive, why not? If it will benefit companies here in the U.S. then what is the problem. Every other country imposes taxes on our products so why can't we? The Japanese for example can build a car for a lot cheaper than an American manufactuer just in labor rates. Employees on the assembly lines here make good money and their benefits are even better, the poor guy in Japan/China/Korea works for a crap wage with a not so god health coverage plan meaning their company is not investing valuable money into the employee while our companies do, that alone takes away from the potential of building better cars, So f**k yeah we should tax them, to make us a more of a competitor here, America comes first, who cares what happens to companies from Korea. I know I don't.

1sicwrx

iTrader: (5)

Just read the above post. I hope it makes more sense of what I am trying to convey.

Sinister Subaru

I'll be the first to agree with you that American manufacturers aren't doing everything they can to make a competitive car. Hence the reason they are going DOWN. Chrysler is no longer one of the "Big Three." The new "Big Three" are GM, Toyota, and Ford (in that order). Within the next 10 years, Toyota will be the #1 auto manufacturer in the world. Why? Who knows? They surely don't build anything fun to drive. It has to be the reliability factor......

Why can't America compete? Because they're going broke paying out the *** on pensions for ex-employees, and paying $50,000 per year to each employee tightening 3 bolts on an assembly line. Not to mention, thank the Auto Worker's Unions.

You mention "flagships." Pontiac's flagship is the GTO. Chevy's is the Corvette. Cadillac's is the XLR-V. They all have their flagships and "halo cars." Buick has nothing. Buick claims that they're trying to attract a younger market, but the Lucerne isn't the way to go. What Buick needs to do to attract the attention of the younger buyer is to bring back cars like the Grand National or GNX. Do I see a rebadged GTO, Buick? How about a rebadged Holden Commodore?

Regarding reliability, people are under the impression that because a car is German that it is a quality automobile. Not true! Mercedes, Volkswagen/Audi, and BMW are at the bottom of the "reliability scale." Premium prices for a 2nd-grade product. I'd rather own the Buick because I wouldn't be stranded on the side of the road because my I-Drive system failed.

You're absolutely right on that! WHY can't GM build a suspension? No excuse for it, just like you said. I find it difficult to believe that GM, the #1 auto manufacturer in the world, can't build a car with a competitive suspension to cars like a BMW.

Yep, I saw that article in CR. Impressive! Don't forget that nearly every Subaru model was mentioned as one of the best in their respective class as well!

You mention the Corvette. Good things can happen when GM tries to do something. They just don't put in the effort. Why should they? Americans are suckers that will "buy American" just because a product is "American." Not me, and I get major crap from my dad about my STi for it. Well, that's fine. I want the best product for my money, and Subaru got it. If there was a Camaro on the market that was as competitive as the STi, guess what.....

For the record, I'm not a fan of Japanese cars. There are very few Japanese cars that I would actually own (STi, Evo, 350Z, G35). But I'm also not a fan of companies.

GM makes bad decisions, and how can they not know that they are? I'm dumbfounded. Take a look at the Camaro and Firebird. They sold about 50,000 per year when they were cancelled. Those aren't bad numbers for a niche vehicle, but the car never evolved. It still rode on a 1967 solid axle. The interiors were among the cheapest. You could play football on the dashboard because it was so long (horrible packaging!). Not to mention, GM did next to nothing to market the Camaro or Firebird. How did they expect to sell them?

......And in comes the Aztek. Build the THING that nobody asked for. Re-tool the factories for an existing model like the F-Body? Hell no. Bring in something that looks like......well, whatever it looks like. And it's been cancelled within about 4-5 years, after GM TRIED to "sharpen its image." For the record, the Aztek DID sell more units than the GTO! The "GTO" name on an imported car? Sorry, that doesn't float, GM. Try calling the "GTO" the "GXP" and see how many it sells. They probably couldn't keep them on the showroom floors!

......And meanwhile, while the F-Body went out of production in 2002, 4 years later a Camaro concept car shows up. Shouldn't this car have shown up in 2003? While GM sits with their thumbs up their asses, Ford's Mustang has been eating GM's cookies. Now that would-be Camaro/Firebird buyers have bought Mustangs because GM didn't have a Camaro/Firebird to give them, when the Camaro debuts, who's going to be buying it? Those people have already purchased Mustangs and are going to be taking a huge loss if they trade them in.

Good point on the Datsun. Which brings me to another question. How many times do we see 10 year old import cars on the road? Honestly, I see more older American cars on the road here than imports. So, are imports really all that much better? Aside from some mid-90s Outbacks and Honda Civics/Accords, I don't see hardly any foreign cars that are "seasoned."

You're absolutely right. I was convinced with the Mustang until I sat in one. What a cheap pile of crap. The door speaker grills flexed if my leg was pressed against them, and not to mention the dashboard was hollow. Yes, hollow! It felt like you could just crack it right in half......

What pisses me off the most about the domestic companies is that they have the know-how, they possess the technology, etc. and they can't do a damned thing right.

For the record, wait until the new Camaro debuts. I will go on record and say that it will hardly look like the concept, and it will probably have a live axle suspension......in the year 2009. Not to mention, the interior will probably be some cobbled-together monstrosity.

gijow

First of all I want to start off by saying that this has been one of the most interesting threads I have read so far. I'm not going to sit here today and repeat what's already been said. I just want to put out my experiences. I bought my first car in '98, it was a 1974 Chevy Nova. This car was all original and still running great. This 24 year old car had a straight 6 that I drove like a v12. I would drop the clutch, take it way over redline and throw it all over dirt roads. This car never gave me trouble. I decided that i needed a newer, more comfortable car so i bought a 2001 Malibu. It was two years old when i bought it and it only had 20k miles. Somewhere between 20k and 65k the car decided that it would start falling apart. I had things inside the car breaking, armrests cracking, the stereo started acting funny and other problems. Soon after that, the brakes went bad due to a problem with the calipers. This happened twice in that 45k miles. I replaced broken belts, head gaskets, batteries, ignition switches, busted suspension parts. I got pissed and decided to get ride of the car (I should mention that these were just the things that broke after my warrantee was up). I bought an 05 Rs and after 11k, no problems. I hope that some day American car makers will go back to there old methods. I would love to be able to buy an American car with confidence. Everyone knows that American can build a great car. I don't know if it's an issue of the companies cutting corners to save a few pennies, or if it's an issue of overpayed, lazy employees but if this trend continues American cars are going to become collectors items based on their rarity.
I'm not an expert, just wanted to add my thoughts.

Sinister Subaru

Funny that you mention you had problems with a Malibu. My parents bought one brand new in 1997 and the thing is a piece of trash. My mother is in denial and claims, "I've had hardly any problems with this car," however, nearly every time I talk to her there's a problem with her car......

herrjr

iTrader: (12)

I just saw this, and had to make a correction. It's true that Henry Ford invented the assembly line process; however, the person that invented the automobile was actually Karl Benz, who in 1885 created the Benz Tri-Car (btw, it's really worth seeing it(and other notable MB models) if you ever get a chance to go to Stuttgart).

The thrashing of all domestics as a whole is somewhat undeserved lately, since JD Power has mentioned that certain GM models assembled in specific plants have been rated as being the most reliable and problem free; more so than some Japanese and German luxury models. It seems that a conception (albeit somewhat a true one) has developed from the late 70's onward that all domestics are garbage and only imports, specifically those from Japan, are worth purchasing. It is also worth noting that alot of those "imports" mentioned in CR were actually assembled here. Unfortunately, the only domestics people believe are worth purchasing are trucks and suvs (side note: a friend bought a Tahoe a couple years ago, and it turns out that it was actually built in Mexico!!!) Anyhow, some people have had great import experiences and some bad ones too. Likewise, some have had great domestic car experiences and some bad ones as well. The problem is that when the market shifted in the 80's, the design of imports as a whole was vastly superior to that of domestics, so this competitive edge combined with the growing belief that all domestic cars were crap in comparison have resulted in the problems that Ford and GM are now facing today. I for one would not like to see either company fold, but the sad reality is that if they don't unload all those pensions weighing them down, then we may eventually have to expect that our two remaining domestic auto companies will be taken over completely by Toyota or Honda, or disappear entirely.

jdepould

iTrader: (2)

the thing is, the americans are still using old technology, my mom just got an 05 grand prix, it's like buying a new car and getting a used one, granted it's a fleet car, so it doesn't matter much. however, she recently had a power steering issue, the fluid was low, but there was no leak anywhere, the mechanic said it probably came like that from the factory. from the factory!??! if they can't be bothered to fill the PS resevoir to spec at the factory then what else aren't they doing?