Safety on Drives
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 308
From: Sturmen Motorsports
Originally posted by sonicsuby
Well, I think the key to being safe is to have everyone drive within their limits.
Like BAN said, too often a new guy tries too hard to keep up with the faster crowd and gets in to trouble. You have to know your limits and keep your pride in check - no one will look down on your for not being the fastest guy out there, but think how stupid you'll feel if you wreck.
The only way to get this kind of driver is to get mature drivers. If you wanna do a fast canyon run, get people you know can handle their cars and that you trust to stay within their skill level. If you want to do a drive with newer people, plan to be slower. It's better to be slow than dead. And always, always, always, make sure the people who are going on the drive won't make stupid *** moves, such as passing around a blind corner, or up a hill, or over a double yellow. That **** is dumb, and can cause you or someone else to die.
I love drives. So far the drives in the Sac area have been pretty safe. One thing I've always noticed is that the faster drivers go fast, and the slower drivers go slow. I'm one of the slower guys and I always wave the faster guys by and hang back. Once one person shows it's ok to go slower, the newer or other slow guys will follow the example.
Well, I think the key to being safe is to have everyone drive within their limits.
Like BAN said, too often a new guy tries too hard to keep up with the faster crowd and gets in to trouble. You have to know your limits and keep your pride in check - no one will look down on your for not being the fastest guy out there, but think how stupid you'll feel if you wreck.
The only way to get this kind of driver is to get mature drivers. If you wanna do a fast canyon run, get people you know can handle their cars and that you trust to stay within their skill level. If you want to do a drive with newer people, plan to be slower. It's better to be slow than dead. And always, always, always, make sure the people who are going on the drive won't make stupid *** moves, such as passing around a blind corner, or up a hill, or over a double yellow. That **** is dumb, and can cause you or someone else to die.
I love drives. So far the drives in the Sac area have been pretty safe. One thing I've always noticed is that the faster drivers go fast, and the slower drivers go slow. I'm one of the slower guys and I always wave the faster guys by and hang back. Once one person shows it's ok to go slower, the newer or other slow guys will follow the example.
Thats why I proposed the two-group thing. Last time it happened naturally, and "skill level" is so subjective that its hard to judge beforehand. Therefore it would be hard to assign postions [I]to[I/] people, unless there was one person that knew everyone's skill.
As to the checkpoint idea, we already do that, and its awesome. Maybe next time we should make a point of making sure the group gets re-sorted if it needs to.
I think we should come up with a few common-sense ideas that we make a point of enforcing, and this is a good start.
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Originally posted by Domino
I think we all pretty much are agreeing that the number one danger is people outdriving themselves. But I also agree that for the most part, people have been mature and avoided that fatal mistake....
I think we all pretty much are agreeing that the number one danger is people outdriving themselves. But I also agree that for the most part, people have been mature and avoided that fatal mistake....
I'd be the first to admit that I suck as a driver and have no real skills- I really should always be at the end of the line, but it doesn't usually work that way.
You might also note that I don't usually try to organize these drives, mostly because of the safety concerns you guys have brought up here.
On the other hand, I am a licenced SCCA Road Rally Safety Steward, so I do know a thing or two about organizing actual competative events on public roads, and it can be done in a way which provides for a very enjoyable drive, including friendly competition, without the need to violate speed laws and the basic rule.
So, there is more to it than just runing on one minute intervals, but that aspect alone avoids the "chase while being chased" psychology that I always experience, and really think has been the common denominator in most if not all of these group drive accidents.
At least those that didn't involve oil or loose gravel on the road, -and maybe even a little bit in those cases too.
So for this year, that is where my drive organizing efforts will be directed, specifically these two weekend events;
Golden West 2004
in Yreka July 17,18
Redwood Rendezvous 2
October 2,3
And I am always glad to help put on a little local rally with a couple weeks notice should there be sufficient interest, which I might do for the Lake County Backroads in June.
Last edited by psoper; May 3, 2004 at 09:23 AM.
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I have a couple of FRS motorola's that you guys can use/have/etc for the drives, if you think it would be beneficial. I'd even chip in to buy more of 'em to keep bad shizzle from happening.
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The number one danger is that however good you are or think you are s**t happens. The more you push it the worse that s**t is likely to be. Deer, bicyclist, unseen road hazard, blow out at speed etc etc.
Radios are fine but I don't see how that makes anything "safer" unless you are going to simulate a closed road by posting "guards" at either end and radio any traffic. Even then..
I suppose, if there were an accident they might help alert though in front to the problem. But given the limited range of those things, chances are they wouldn't.
At best I think they might make the drive more fun but that's about it.
Pete it correct. The Road Rally format was developed so that groups of drivers could have a good time driving some challanging roads while limiting the danger both the paticipants and to the bystander.
The whole point is to shift the motivation from "drive as fast as I can on this road" to "drive to match the clock better than the other guy".
The main disadvantage to it is that one, it takes some work and organization to put it together and two, it works better if people have co-drivers.
Personally I prefer the road rally format since it provide some focus to the drive.
There really is no way to make a follow the leader thrash safer except to drive slower which, I realize, is counter to the whole thrill. That is the reality. Sooner or later something bad will happen and the chances are it will with just plain dumb luck rather than anything to do with someones skills.
That said here are a few safer driving "rules" that apply to driving in general:
1. Slow way down when passing though any kind of inhabited area.
2. Slow way dow if you see any pedestrians anywhere near the road.
3. Slow way down whenever there is any other traffic.
4. Beware of wildlife cattle and horses. Slow way down give them a wide berth. Be prepared for suprises
5. Beware of bicycles. Slow way down and give them a wide berth.
6. Beware of blind corners, dips an humps and exposures. Slow way down and keep to your side of the road. If you can't see the road ahead, slow down.
7. Don't just watch the tailights of the guy ahead. Anticipate the road. When in doubt, brake and change down before you get there. Don't expect the guy in front to tell you when. He may be an idiot with a death wish.
8. Remember, you might feel you are Petter Solberg, but you don't have a closed road, a co-driver to tell you how to take the next corner, a roll cage, a helmet, a fire suit, a racing harness, an emergency response crew ready to fly you out to the nearest Critical Care facility etc etc etc. But you are driving a dangerous weapon so treat it with respect so it doesn't go off accidently.
Tim
Radios are fine but I don't see how that makes anything "safer" unless you are going to simulate a closed road by posting "guards" at either end and radio any traffic. Even then..
I suppose, if there were an accident they might help alert though in front to the problem. But given the limited range of those things, chances are they wouldn't.
At best I think they might make the drive more fun but that's about it.
Pete it correct. The Road Rally format was developed so that groups of drivers could have a good time driving some challanging roads while limiting the danger both the paticipants and to the bystander.
The whole point is to shift the motivation from "drive as fast as I can on this road" to "drive to match the clock better than the other guy".
The main disadvantage to it is that one, it takes some work and organization to put it together and two, it works better if people have co-drivers.
Personally I prefer the road rally format since it provide some focus to the drive.
There really is no way to make a follow the leader thrash safer except to drive slower which, I realize, is counter to the whole thrill. That is the reality. Sooner or later something bad will happen and the chances are it will with just plain dumb luck rather than anything to do with someones skills.
That said here are a few safer driving "rules" that apply to driving in general:
1. Slow way down when passing though any kind of inhabited area.
2. Slow way dow if you see any pedestrians anywhere near the road.
3. Slow way down whenever there is any other traffic.
4. Beware of wildlife cattle and horses. Slow way down give them a wide berth. Be prepared for suprises
5. Beware of bicycles. Slow way down and give them a wide berth.
6. Beware of blind corners, dips an humps and exposures. Slow way down and keep to your side of the road. If you can't see the road ahead, slow down.
7. Don't just watch the tailights of the guy ahead. Anticipate the road. When in doubt, brake and change down before you get there. Don't expect the guy in front to tell you when. He may be an idiot with a death wish.
8. Remember, you might feel you are Petter Solberg, but you don't have a closed road, a co-driver to tell you how to take the next corner, a roll cage, a helmet, a fire suit, a racing harness, an emergency response crew ready to fly you out to the nearest Critical Care facility etc etc etc. But you are driving a dangerous weapon so treat it with respect so it doesn't go off accidently.
Tim
i would love to go on one of these drives
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From: Sturmen Motorsports
Well, like I said before, I'm really not experienced with these things, but the few drives that I've been on, it was pretty apparent to me that radios really could have helped. The turns we're going around are USUALLY blind, and it would be helpful to know if there are pedestrians, traffic, deer, etc. etc. etc. in the area.
In respect to the "beat the time of the guy in front of you" i think it would be even more dangerous. When you spread yourself out, you effectively increase the length of the caravan, and spread out the danger to other people over a wider area. I really think that the early warning system of "the guy in front of you" (weather it be hazard flashers or a radio) helps.
I say we get a few ideas together, like the radios, the time rally staggered start, etc. And try them out. Maybe we could do the test run for 'rally mode' on some short drive so that we don't try to force it on a drive someone already put together (ie, one of Rich's routes).
In respect to the "beat the time of the guy in front of you" i think it would be even more dangerous. When you spread yourself out, you effectively increase the length of the caravan, and spread out the danger to other people over a wider area. I really think that the early warning system of "the guy in front of you" (weather it be hazard flashers or a radio) helps.
I say we get a few ideas together, like the radios, the time rally staggered start, etc. And try them out. Maybe we could do the test run for 'rally mode' on some short drive so that we don't try to force it on a drive someone already put together (ie, one of Rich's routes).
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Road rally is not "beat the time of the guy in front of you." It is get a more "exact" time than the guy in front of you. This inherently limits your speed and changes the challange from driving as fast as you can to driving as consistently as you can.
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Ideas
Just my 2 cents from a LOT of experience in So. Cal, including Monte Carlo style rallies...
1. Radios. FRS radios can be had at Gottschalks for $40/pr. Split that between two, and if you can afford the gas for this run, you can afford 20 bucks for a radio. You don't need a co-driver unless you are a leader, since you clip the radio to your visor, turn your stereo down (so you can hear the leader call notes), and focus on the road. No one but the leader speaks unless there's an emergency, such as a vehicle collision, etc.
Simple notes by the leader (or if two groups, leaders)
"Traffic x times" - opposing traffic coming (times number of cars)
"Kids" - pedestrians (not limited to children)
"Bicycles" - obvious
"Gravel" - there's gravel (or other FOD) in the roadway to slow down
2. 1 minute intervals. Best idea I've heard if we aren't using the radios. The Monte Carlo style rallies ( http://carzero.freeservers.com ) that are put on are great ways to have a fun time on the back roads, and arrive safely. I don't think in the several years that this has been produced that there has been anything worse than a driveable collision of a WRX wagon with a barbed wire fence... I have worked, and run several of these events, and would be willing (with Psoper's help) to help produce one of these.
3. Directions. I was having great fun on the last run, but I know I was looking at my rear view mirror wondering if some of the other drivers behind were driving beyond their skill level in trying not to get lost. I felt that the Nissan (behind me) might have made it if we hadn't taken off, and left him racing to try to find us, and guessing which roads to take. That's why I was racing behind that RS sedan, knowing that I didn't have the instructions, and didn't want to get lost. I was comfortable with my speed, but probably would have backed off to let the others behind me catch up if I had directions in the car with me. A hand out can and will be created for each car coming to the Clearlake event if I have input on the drive.
4. Check the egos...
1. Radios. FRS radios can be had at Gottschalks for $40/pr. Split that between two, and if you can afford the gas for this run, you can afford 20 bucks for a radio. You don't need a co-driver unless you are a leader, since you clip the radio to your visor, turn your stereo down (so you can hear the leader call notes), and focus on the road. No one but the leader speaks unless there's an emergency, such as a vehicle collision, etc.
Simple notes by the leader (or if two groups, leaders)
"Traffic x times" - opposing traffic coming (times number of cars)
"Kids" - pedestrians (not limited to children)
"Bicycles" - obvious
"Gravel" - there's gravel (or other FOD) in the roadway to slow down
2. 1 minute intervals. Best idea I've heard if we aren't using the radios. The Monte Carlo style rallies ( http://carzero.freeservers.com ) that are put on are great ways to have a fun time on the back roads, and arrive safely. I don't think in the several years that this has been produced that there has been anything worse than a driveable collision of a WRX wagon with a barbed wire fence... I have worked, and run several of these events, and would be willing (with Psoper's help) to help produce one of these.
3. Directions. I was having great fun on the last run, but I know I was looking at my rear view mirror wondering if some of the other drivers behind were driving beyond their skill level in trying not to get lost. I felt that the Nissan (behind me) might have made it if we hadn't taken off, and left him racing to try to find us, and guessing which roads to take. That's why I was racing behind that RS sedan, knowing that I didn't have the instructions, and didn't want to get lost. I was comfortable with my speed, but probably would have backed off to let the others behind me catch up if I had directions in the car with me. A hand out can and will be created for each car coming to the Clearlake event if I have input on the drive.
4. Check the egos...
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From: Sturmen Motorsports
Originally posted by gotwrx
Road rally is not "beat the time of the guy in front of you." It is get a more "exact" time than the guy in front of you.
Road rally is not "beat the time of the guy in front of you." It is get a more "exact" time than the guy in front of you.
Well, no matter what we do, as long as there are steps to be taken to increase safety on the next run (and noone being stupid on purpose like the donuts in the field idea) Ill be super excited.
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Glad to see this thread. I was on the Saturday run. It was the slow one but it was fast enough to scare the hell out of at least 98% of the people on the road. I thought it was as fast as I could safely go. I worried about Sunday. As for suggestions I think gotrex is right on. In addition I don't think anyone should try to pass. Just wait until the next stop and ask to go ahead of that person. Always stay on your side of the road if you can't see at least 75 yards. Don't think you can make the corner. You have to know you can make it and keep something in reserve in case it is tighter than you think or the camber is off or something. What I worry about the most is the leader taking a head on in one of the narrow parts. I had several cars in front of me or I would have never gone down some of those roads at that speed. I'm not the slowest guy but I know I am not the fastest guy in the world either so I try to stay within my limits and not take chances. That's why I am still doing this at 60 years old. I want to see all you guys make it that far to.