http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7103517/site/newsweek/

Let me summarize: Bush is a freaking genius.

Comments?

P.S. Did anyone miss me during my political forum hiatus?

Man, liberals must be hating this =).

So far everything is looking good. I even remember reading how Jon Stewart thought things were going well too in a conversation with Clinton aide Nancy Soderberg recently:



No, it's--it is--I absolutely agree with you, this is--this is the most difficult thing for me to--because, I think, I don't care for the tactics, I don't care for this, the weird arrogance, the setting up. But I gotta say, I haven't seen results like this ever in that region...almost like we're not going to have to invade Iran and Syria. They're gonna invade themselves at a certain point.


Call me crazy but I'll even go as far to accredit these current events to the low dem/lib member participation in this forum recently. They may not fully admit it, but I think it's a thought deep within the void of their mind(s).

Domestic issues aside, if the middle east is transformed with new democracies during Bush's second term -or- later as a result of Bush's actions, he will go down as one of the greatest US presidents ever. Hands down. We already had this hypothetical discussion earlier, remember? Nobody could name a single President that's revamped the Middle East and maintained a strong economy. What makes this more acceptable is that the U.S. economy has gotten stronger in Bush's second term as opposed to his first. Somewhat common in 2nd term Presidents...

Even if a Democratic President takes over years from now, and in his term in office there is a strong democratic movement in the middle east, there won't be any question that Bush help lay the foundation. This will inevitably hold true if there's not a significant turn for the worst followed by other action(s) taken to influence change in the Middle East by future Presidents as a result.

On the other hand, if the Middle East turns for the worst Bush will be ranked as a complete failure and rightfully so... Even if future, negative turn-of-events aren't directly connected to his actions as President, leftists and Dems will undoubtedly point the finger.

Only time can tell.

*I didn't include domestic issues because it won't even be a considerable factor if the Middle East is transformed.*

*I didn't include domestic issues because it won't even be a considerable factor if the Middle East is transformed.*

I agree with this, but domestic issues are what Bush is messing up on royaly right now (environment, education, and ss). He and his admin are VERY good at keeping the attention off of what they suck at though...good for them in terms of the way they'll look in history books.

The lack of lib/dem posts in this particular forum probably is due in part to the apparent success in the middle east, but I attribute my own absence more to the fact that there has not been sufficient DEBATEABLE topics recently in the media. The war is beat to death, social security is a joke no matter what Bush does to it, and everything I can rant about the environment and education and how Bush seems to despise both will be ignored and steared toward a discussion of the success we're having in Iraq and how the pres will go down in history as one of the greats.

I'll agree with this.

The point I'm trying to make is if the Middle East stays on its current course it's bound to make Bush one of the best Presidents there ever was.

On the flip side, if everything turns to **** in the Middle East he'll have to eat everything regarding domestic issues on top it. It'll be a double slap in the face.

I agree with this, but domestic issues are what Bush is messing up on royaly right now (environment, education, and ss). He and his admin are VERY good at keeping the attention off of what they suck at though...good for them in terms of the way they'll look in history books.

The lack of lib/dem posts in this particular forum probably is due in part to the apparent success in the middle east, but I attribute my own absence more to the fact that there has not been sufficient DEBATEABLE topics recently in the media. The war is beat to death, social security is a joke no matter what Bush does to it, and everything I can rant about the environment and education and how Bush seems to despise both will be ignored and steared toward a discussion of the success we're having in Iraq and how the pres will go down in history as one of the greats.


...pretty much how I feel.

So Salty, you really think that when the 'dems/libs' were participating more, it was somehow stifling the progress made by our president? I wish this measly forum had a nanofraction of that much influence.

And I hate to say it again... but when arguments from a particular side aren't given any thought or value by the 'moderator' of the forum, it doesn't do much to encourage one to come back and continue to frequent the forum. If you weren't so set on your views, and were a little more open to constuctive arguments, I think this forum would be more of a place for discussion, rather than the Limbaugh-esque, left bashing, Bush grooming ;) parade it has become of late.

I see it as no surprise that the lefties are losing interest here. We may not have much to complain about on certain issues, but there are plenty where there remains disagreement. If we were to discuss them, I would expect a barrage of 'humerous' jabs toward stereotypical liberals trying to marginalize and liken my view to that of the average 'dirt-hippie', rather than any kind of intelligent, informed response.

Back on topic, so if Bush is a genius because this particular thing is going well, would he also be an idiot for how he has neglected education and the environment? You guys continue make it seem like everyone left of center wants the middle east to blow up in our face. After all the time, effort, money, and human lives we've spent there, we better be getting something done, and it is no surprise to me that we are beginning to see the fruits of our efforts.

Regardless, I still think this certain thing could have been held differently and done more efficiently, and, unforunately, there will always be things for people to look back and complain about. But, seriously, do you need liberals to bow to your knees and say you were right all along for validation? Yay, Bush did good... gold star for him? How bout two? There ya go, Georgie, now run along.

Or, if you want it your way, here you go:
I thought all our efforts would have been gone to complete waste... Bush is good-for-nothing...but wait, it looks like he may have done it! Oh, I, and every liberal on the planet have been proved wrong, and we should begin to consider him for the title of 'greatest president of all time,' because you know a president's only duty is to protect our nation by invading other countries and giving them the 'gift' of our way of life.

...is that what you wanted me to say?

[/rant]

...and you thought it was safe, hella.... muahahhahahhah
I like to make surprise appearances now and again.

...pretty much how I feel.

So Salty, you really think that when the 'dems/libs' were participating more, it was somehow stifling the progress made by our president? I wish this measly forum had a nanofraction of that much influence.

But I managed to get some participation. It's funny that you jumped on this post with a rebuttal when you haven't touched another post of mine recently. You must have seen them and actually read them or else you wouldn’t have noticed this one either. Hasn't there been anything worthy enough to argue in the other threads? Or maybe it's because you didn't have any reasonable argument to present?

And I hate to say it again... but when arguments from a particular side aren't given any thought or value by the 'moderator' of the forum, it doesn't do much to encourage one to come back and continue to frequent the forum. If you weren't so set on your views, and were a little more open to constuctive arguments, I think this forum would be more of a place for discussion, rather than the Limbaugh-esque, left bashing, Bush grooming ;) parade it has become of late.

Do you really think my arguments aren't given any thought? Wow... I even do my homework on current events unlike most others here with "axisoflogic.com" sources. I'd like to see what your views are regarding current events. Exactly how aren't my thoughts of value?

I love your demeanor in this post too... you still think I'm on the far-right, don't you? Sad.

I see it as no surprise that the lefties are losing interest here. We may not have much to complain about on certain issues, but there are plenty where there remains disagreement. If we were to discuss them, I would expect a barrage of 'humerous' jabs toward stereotypical liberals trying to marginalize and liken my view to that of the average 'dirt-hippie', rather than any kind of intelligent, informed response.

You do realize that you've stereotyped me in earlier in this post, right?

Back on topic, so if Bush is a genius because this particular thing is going well, would he also be an idiot for how he has neglected education and the environment? You guys continue make it seem like everyone left of center wants the middle east to blow up in our face. After all the time, effort, money, and human lives we've spent there, we better be getting something done, and it is no surprise to me that we are beginning to see the fruits of our efforts.

Fine. I never said that Democrats and Liberals were hoping for failure in the Middle East. I wouldn't put it past them to dish out the "I told you so" remarks if everything went sour. It's our very competitive nature to do this for our team so why try and hide it?

If you're not surprised by the fruits of our efforts then why were you so against it in the first place? Furthermore, why hasn't any other President that you firmly supported tried to do the same thing in the past? You make it seem obvious that you're not surprised so where's the excuse? Do you actually clean your floors or do you just sweep everything under the rug?

Regardless, I still think this certain thing could have been held differently and done more efficiently, and, unforunately, there will always be things for people to look back and complain about. But, seriously, do you need liberals to bow to your knees and say you were right all along for validation? Yay, Bush did good... gold star for him? How bout two? There ya go, Georgie, now run along.

Or, if you want it your way, here you go:
I thought all our efforts would have been gone to complete waste... Bush is good-for-nothing...but wait, it looks like he may have done it! Oh, I, and every liberal on the planet have been proved wrong, and we should begin to consider him for the title of 'greatest president of all time,' because you know a president's only duty is to protect our nation by invading other countries and giving them the 'gift' of our way of life.

...is that what you wanted me to say?

I expected it actually. How can you legitimately argue this otherwise? If everything goes well then Al Franken would have to give Bush credit too.

Back on topic, so if Bush is a genius because this particular thing is going well, would he also be an idiot for how he has neglected education and the environment? You guys continue make it seem like everyone left of center wants the middle east to blow up in our face. After all the time, effort, money, and human lives we've spent there, we better be getting something done, and it is no surprise to me that we are beginning to see the fruits of our efforts.


Well, glad to hear you admit it is going well. I was wondering if any liberal-leaning person would admit it.

As far as education and the environment, I'd be willing to bet that there is a reasonable argument for most or all of GW's positions. By no way do I agree with all of Bush's actions, but I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt when I'm on the fence. Maybe you should start a thread about how No Child Left Behind does more harm than good, and how he's destroying the environment.

But I managed to get some participation. It's funny that you jumped on this post with a rebuttal when you haven't touched another post of mine recently. You must have seen them and actually read them or else you wouldn’t have noticed this one either. Hasn't there been anything worthy enough to argue in the other threads? Or maybe it's because you didn't have any reasonable argument to present?

Actually, I just happened to look at this thread while searching for 'new posts'...
You still don't get my point- I used to try to argue with you, but when you aren't being listened to and your viewpoint is marginalized, it doesn't exactly spark further discussion.



Do you really think my arguments aren't given any thought? Wow... I even do my homework on current events unlike most others here with "axisoflogic.com" sources. I'd like to see what your views are regarding current events. Exactly how aren't my thoughts of value?

Please read again.... I said MY arguments arent given any thought (thanks for the convenient example) or value by yourself. If you weren't aware, when you disregard or degrade someone's opinion, it doesn't encourage them to explain their view further.



I love your demeanor in this post too... you still think I'm on the far-right, don't you? Sad.


Where did I imply that? I always hate to generalize, but in some cases one needs to classify someone on one side or another. I never said far-right... how about responding to what I actually said? I assume nothing. But, from observation, I see that you are making assumptions about my assumptions. A basis like this flat out blows for a strong argument, and only introduces flaws to be picked out.


You do realize that you've stereotyped me in earlier in this post, right?


Where exactly? Just saying I did isn't quite enough...


Fine. I never said that Democrats and Liberals were hoping for failure in the Middle East. I wouldn't put it past them to dish out the "I told you so" remarks if everything went sour. It's our very competitive nature to do this for our team so why try and hide it?


You think you're on a team? I guess that explains everything... j/ k;) But, anyway, that is a good point... I guess this is where I'm different. I don't play for a team, and I definitely wouldn'nt adjust my view of something just to satisfy some political gripe. Therefore, I didn't wish for the failure of our efforts.



If you're not surprised by the fruits of our efforts then why were you so against it in the first place? Furthermore, why hasn't any other President that you firmly supported tried to do the same thing in the past? You make it seem obvious that you're not surprised so where's the excuse? Do you actually clean your floors or do you just sweep everything under the rug?


Man, you know everything about me, don't ya? I never disagreed with the goals we had originally (WMD, terrorism, freedom/democracy, etc..), but as you might have noticed, our goals have somewhat shifted, and not everything has gone as smoothly as it may have if we weren't so hasty. Do you expect people who don't feel Bush is presidential material (including me) to sit back and accept that he went to war based on faulty intelligence? He's no better than Dan Rather- who's integrity has recently taken a hit. I'm not complaining about the results, nobody really is. So you guys can go on and continue to 'believe in Bush'- but that doesn't mean you should discourage others from thinking for themselves, and pointing out mistakes along the way. (this goes back to your 'team' point- you've got to expect those on the left to jump on any fault, and not exactly celebrate the successes. I think keeping this in mind would help us understand one another better. )

I expected it actually. How can you legitimately argue this otherwise? If everything goes well then Al Franken would have to give Bush credit too.

Expected what? Argue what? I don't exactly see what you're responding to here... But I do find it ironically humerous that you will sh*t on Franken's opinion incessantly, then turn around and beg that he gives his approval of Bushie. :haha:


As much as you may want me to so your generalizations can be validated, I don't think the way you assume I do. All I'm asking is to stop basing arguments on what someone assumes another might think. (and if you think I'm committing this very mistake, sorry, forgive me this time.) I'll be careful with the assumptions, myself... if I decide to jump into any other arguments.


...now, here's the new debate: was this bickering at all constructive? I'm hoping for 'yes', but unfortunately leaning towards 'no'

Please read again.... I said MY arguments arent given any thought (thanks for the convenient example) or value by yourself. If you weren't aware, when you disregard or degrade someone's opinion, it doesn't encourage them to explain their view further.

Because maybe your arguments aren't very solid. Have you ever considered that? Honestly. It seems that everyone of your posts includes you complaining about my moderating ability, you belittling the forum or some phrase that suggests someone is wearing the American flag etc. It's gotten very old.

We all know that this forum doesn’t hold any water away from our keyboards so you’re not breaking new ground or hurting anyone’s feelings when you make those stupid comments. The only person that's consistently complained about my moderating ability is you. I'm not trying to be imperious in the slightest but I think it's because I’m thorough in a majority of my arguments.

If you incorporate everything I’ve said into a post it seems that you have the innate ability to present the same old *****foot point that could have otherwise been accomplished in a few sentences.

Because maybe your arguments aren't very solid. Have you ever considered that? Honestly. It seems that everyone of your posts includes you complaining about my moderating ability, you belittling the forum or some phrase that suggests someone is wearing the American flag etc. It's gotten very old.

We all know that this forum doesn’t hold any water away from our keyboards so you’re not breaking new ground or hurting anyone’s feelings when you make those stupid comments. The only person that's consistently complained about my moderating ability is you. I'm not trying to be imperious in the slightest but I think it's because I’m thorough in a majority of my arguments.

If you incorporate everything I’ve said into a post it seems that you have the innate ability to present the same old *****foot point that could have otherwise been accomplished in a few sentences.


Gee, It's easy to just say things, isn't it? I'd like for you to name one argument I've made in this forum you believe is lacking thought and support. I feel I make myself clear, whether it concerns your moderation or a political topic, and I even have the patience to take the effort and explain myself over and over. It's not my fault when you decide everything I say isn't worth trying to understand- I guess I should give up, once agian, on this forum. And about your moderating, if that's what you like to call it, my goal wasn't to hurt your feelings. You asked why liberals weren't participating, and I, as a liberal, offered my reason why. I'm sure others feel the same, but don't have the gall or patience to try to get across to you.

What originally made me start 'policing' you were your multiple irrelevant, facetious responses you had made after I had taken the time to thoroughly explain my position. If you won't acknowledge someone's point and can only pick fun at it, why not post nothing and save the effort? It may be the first thing that comes to your mind, but it is also quite effective at distracting from the main point. It seems that whenever a dem. makes a good point or refutes one of yours, you can only respond with an unrelated humerous quip. I don't know if you are trying to distract attention from their point, or what, but I guess that's one way to deal with people who are willing to think a little deeper. ;)

...I don't exactly know what to call it, but I know this isn't a political discussion forum.

And don't worry, after all you've said and gone through, I don't expect you to be able to admit any of my points are valid... After all, I'm just a mindless loon- someone please put me back in my cage. :)

My antics here are already getting old? I guess I should take them elsewhere... I post like once a week- geez! How do you think others feel about you? To me, Your seeming unwillingness to deal with or have intelligent discussion with those with differing political views has gotten very old.

...so there's my '*****foot' point, again... It seems I need to keep explaining it to you as it is... If I just used a few sentences like you suggested, how would you ever understand?

http://rds.yahoo.com/S=96062883/K=derail/v=2/SID=w/l=IVI/SIG=123j9lg28/EXP=1110473506/*-http%3A//www.vigville.com/forum_images/derail.jpg

...sorry hella

edit: fixed pic ;)

...sorry hella

Ahahhahahaaa

interesting points. remove the conjecture and you might be able to construct a viable argument.

as far as straying off topic scoobsport, Salty is infamous for draggin red herrings across legit points. Classic fallacious reasoning

I didn't relize the US economy was so great.............


National def = all time high
Interest rates = all time low

don't quote me but the US dollar = do we know how close we our to a resession?

I will admit I didnt get any facts, but I feel this country is on a knifes edge and I dont want to fall.

I didn't relize the US economy was so great.............


National def = all time high
Interest rates = all time low

don't quote me but the US dollar = do we know how close we our to a resession?

I will admit I didnt get any facts, but I feel this country is on a knifes edge and I dont want to fall.


Forget the economy.... WERE SPREADING THE SEED OF FREEDOM! :rolleyes:

It's not that I'm against what has been accomplished, I just wish some other countries would have taken some of the burden off of us... Perhaps if we weren't so impatient.... wait, then Saddam woulda' nuked us with all his WMD's!!!!! :rolleyes:

^^ the ones that he swallowed before we got there in time??

I didn't relize the US economy was so great.............


National def = all time high
Interest rates = all time low

don't quote me but the US dollar = do we know how close we our to a resession?

I will admit I didnt get any facts, but I feel this country is on a knifes edge and I dont want to fall.

Nobody said it was "so great."

The economy is growing at a reasonably good pace despite budget deficits. Regardless, spending does need to be reduced in order make the economy rise more.

Interest rates are at the all time low they have ever been in 40years. This still holds true even after the Fed raised rates a quarter point recently.

Rates are a weak argument in this case because if the economy wasn't so great then rates would be generally higher than they have been. Raising rates tends to boost the dollars value because there's less dollars flowing through the economy. The rate at which to borrow money becomes higher so there's less people willing to borrow money. It also encourages international investors to pour money into bonds. If it was that bad then we would have already tried make-up the fact the dollars is weaker awhile ago to avoid recent trends with the dollar today, you see? It's not a huge deal really...

Raising rates quickly isn't a good thing when the dollar is weaker because you want something to give in order to make-up for it. It usually has a negative effect on stocks and has actually had a similar effect on bonds for some odd reason. You don't want to limit the money supply to when the housing market is flourishing. Instead, you want to gradually raise the rates .250% in order to regain the value of the dollar without jeopardizing the recent good trends in the economy. Therefore, the recent economy isn't great but is certainly good and getting better.

From the looks of the dollar, it isn't so apparent to me that the economy is getting better. Where's that deficit graph over the last few presidential terms again?

Nobody said it was "so great."so true, and I hope that nations that are able to take control of thier own government(s)will be way more effective then us trying too tell them how to do it.

The economy is growing at a reasonably good pace despite budget deficits. Regardless, spending does need to be reduced in order make the economy rise more..yah reaaaal resonable. I should say I don't know everything and I'm more of a people's person when it comes to issue's of this type of matter (I'm a watcher):lol:

so whats reasonable? well 5 years ago I bought a house for 119k and sold it 3 years later for 209k, bought a house in Reno with that money and now this house in 2 years is worth 419k? That doesnt sound to reasonable to me.................and how long can it last before we have rid ourselves from the middle class?

I do agree spending does need to be reduced but then again the American people should set the example for the government to follow...........how much debt can one man carry :(

Interest rates are at the all time low they have ever been in 40years. This still holds true even after the Fed raised rates a quarter point recently.

Rates are a weak argument in this case because if the economy wasn't so great then rates would be generally higher than they have been. Raising rates tends to boost the dollars value because there's less dollars flowing through the economy. The rate at which to borrow money becomes higher so there's less people willing to borrow money. It also encourages international investors to pour money into bonds. If it was that bad then we would have already tried make-up the fact the dollars is weaker awhile ago to avoid recent trends with the dollar today, you see? It's not a huge deal really....
this is a huge deal in America today, problem being money is blinding. Again I can only base my opion here and this is not directed at Salty but anyone that is reading this post. Right now millions of people our living outside thier means and using the equity in thier homes to bail them out. The problem with that is when the rates do have to rise the housing market will have to come down to meet what people can pay. Now you can become upside down in your house if you ever have to refinance again at the higher rate or have to sell with a loss on the property do to now current market value.


Raising rates quickly isn't a good thing when the dollar is weaker because you want something to give in order to make-up for it. It usually has a negative effect on stocks and has actually had a similar effect on bonds for some odd reason. You don't want to limit the money supply to when the housing market is flourishing. Instead, you want to gradually raise the rates .250% in order to regain the value of the dollar without jeopardizing the recent good trends in the economy. Therefore, the recent economy isn't great but is certainly good and getting better.I hope so. otherwise it could get ugly real quick when people start filling BK's and they dont mind putting the house in with it just to get out of the loan....................

I would hate to see what happens to the lenders/borrowers :(

again no real post but more of the trend I see

yah reaaaal resonable. I should say I don't know everything and I'm more of a people's person when it comes to issue's of this type of matter (I'm a watcher):lol:

so whats reasonable? well 5 years ago I bought a house for 119k and sold it 3 years later for 209k, bought a house in Reno with that money and now this house in 2 years is worth 419k? That doesnt sound to reasonable to me.................and how long can it last before we have rid ourselves from the middle class?

You just covered the essential reason why our economy is stronger than you think. You're thinking that it's directly related to inflation when it's actually more related to property trends in your area. The housing market is the strongest pillar in the economy today. If rates are adjusted too drastically it would shock the market. Just because some people's paycheck have not been keeping up with the housing market does not mean that this hasn't happened before or is a bad thing. Although it's a PITA for first-time home buyers, people in metropolitan areas in CA, NY and FL have been doing just fine off these trends for decades. If one can't keep up with the bigger fish by investing conservatively then it's nobodies else problem but their own. You can find a job in Butte Montana or West Virginia and live lavishly on your 30acre lot for practically nothing. You may not have a hoping nightclub or Six Flags down the street but you're still making a good living off your choice and have to accept reality.

You personally see your house value rise and also see your equity rise as a result. You also pay more and more towards principle on everything you have in your possession. As a result, you feel comfortable with your current debt to income figures and know they can only get better. There's nothing wrong with this... The thing you have to remember is that people are borrowing against their equity and getting a mortgage that's essentially the same monthly amount they originally paid or lower than what they bought the property at.

For example, some can effectively do this because they bought the property at 7.0% years ago and have refinanced today for 5.375%. The security in doing this is that you're still comfortable with your monthly payments and the value of the property is still below your feet whenever you decided to sell. Unless of course there's something being build that can influence economic obsolence (airport) in which case you sell asap or accept the unfortunate loss that's a part of investing.


this is a huge deal in America today, problem being money is blinding. Again I can only base my opion here and this is not directed at Salty but anyone that is reading this post. Right now millions of people our living outside thier means and using the equity in thier homes to bail them out. The problem with that is when the rates do have to rise the housing market will have to come down to meet what people can pay. Now you can become upside down in your house if you ever have to refinance again at the higher rate or have to sell with a loss on the property do to now current market value.

It is a big deal but it's something that can be fixed at the same time. This is exactly why the feds are SLOWLY raising rates. they want to establish the dollar and keep the current active markets stable.

I truely hope more people then not have your kind of knoledge :D I always fear the worst :( well atleast when it comes to man kinds sake :lol:

I'm surprised nobody mentioned the unemployment rate.