Marine's probably been up for 2 or 3 days before getting shot in the face, has faced numerous obstacles and watched his buddies die or become wounded.

The Marine's only mistake was not looking for the camera first as far as I'm concerned.

What do you think? Is it negligence on the Marine's part, his USMC chain of command -or- a result of battle stress and sleep deprivation?


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20041115/wl_nm/iraq_marine_shooting_dc_2


LONDON (Reuters) - A television pool report by U.S. network NBC said on Monday that a U.S. Marine had shot dead an unarmed and wounded Iraqi prisoner in a mosque in Falluja.

The Iraqi was one of five wounded prisoners left in the mosque after Marines had fought their way in on Friday and Saturday. There was no immediate comment from the Pentagon (news - web sites) on the report.

U.S. forces launched an offensive one week ago on Falluja, and have gained overall control of the formerly rebel-held city, although scattered resistance remains.

The pool report by NBC correspondent Kevin Sites said the mosque had been used by insurgents to attack U.S. forces, who stormed it and an adjacent building, killing 10 militants and wounding the five.

Sites said the wounded had been left in the mosque for others to pick up and move to the rear for treatment. No reason was given why that had not happened.

A second group of Marines entered the mosque on Saturday after reports it had been reoccupied. Footage from the embedded television crew showed the five still in the mosque, although several appeared to be already close to death, Sites said.

He said one Marine noticed one of the prisoners was still breathing.

A Marine can be heard saying on the pool footage provided to Reuters Television: "He's ****ing faking he's dead. He faking he's ****ing dead."

"The Marine then raises his rifle and fires into the man's head. The pictures are too graphic for us to broadcast," Sites said. No images of the shooting were shown in the footage provided to Reuters.

I wonder how much play his wound to the face and RTD will receive?

**** um i see it justified after they had booby trapped the other dead insurgent and that marine had taken a shot in the face a day prior...

tensions are high if you witness a hostile act you return fire... for mine and my units safety i would have done the same

edgar, :)
not to mention they had cleared that mosk the day befor and had to re enter it and clear it the next day

If it was me, and I was clearing a room, and my buddy started shouting that there was moving body in the room, I'd be on the ready. If I saw the person that was "moving" reaching for a weapon I'd shoot to stop him. I would not however just smoke him for just "moving". It doesn't make any sense. The wounded need to be interogated for information. So even though the "news" might lead you to believe that the Marine killed a bad guy for no reason, I have a hard time believing that.

**** um i see it justified after they had booby trapped the other dead insurgent and that marine had taken a shot in the face a day prior...

tensions are high if you witness a hostile act you return fire... for mine and my units safety i would have done the same

edgar, :)
not to mention they had cleared that mosk the day befor and had to re enter it and clear it the next day

I heard they were booby trapping bodies too.

I was pretty pissed when I heard about this. But it seems there are mitigating circumstances. Still, it was a mistake to do this in front of a camera. For that I am sure this soldier will pay dearly.

I was pretty pissed when I heard about this. But it seems there are mitigating circumstances. Still, it was a mistake to do this in front of a camera. For that I am sure this soldier will pay dearly.

Yep, he should have turned and fired on the camera man afterwards if you ask me.
That stupid sob gave the tape to al jazeera. That's a capital offense IMO.

If he was not armed then the soldier made a huge error in judgement and will be dealt with I am sure. If he was armed and posed a threat Fk'em!

This is the effect war has on someone especially after they had been involved in a battle for the last 24-48 hours. Sad because the soldier was probably a good marine and good guy in general, but there is no cause for shooting an unarmed, injured person execution style. If this had been caught on camera happening to an American POW we would be screaming and yelling for revenge.

The bad thing is that although we will not see any of this on American television becuase it will be deemed too graphic and ultimately hurt the war effort, it will be shown over and over again on arabic television stations and will only hurt our objective of winning the peace over there.

If it was me, and I was clearing a room, and my buddy started shouting that there was moving body in the room, I'd be on the ready. If I saw the person that was "moving" reaching for a weapon I'd shoot to stop him. I would not however just smoke him for just "moving". It doesn't make any sense.

It does make sense when he saw his buddy get KIA'd in a nearby building by a booby-trapped body.


[quote=Chrisnonstop]The wounded need to be interogated for information. So even though the "news" might lead you to believe that the Marine killed a bad guy for no reason, I have a hard time believing that.

Although I'm inclined to agree it's not entirely necessary when clearing a room to gather intelligence. Your job is to clear the room of hostile individuals and then collected intelligence via the old swift knee to the groin and POW/PIR search.

I have trained with Marines in CQB/doctrine and even though most of their SOP's differ from the Army, they know how to effectively clear rooms. The hard part about this situation is that you have a tired, and in this case wounded Marine that's going to be on edge after walking through the fatal funnel (the area around the door). Add this combination with an somewhat surgical ROE and tons of city blocks to clear and the only factor left is time.

If there is something fishy, there will be a full investigation and trial. Remember, there are court marshalls going on for putting panties on someones head. There will never be a trial for the poor guys on the bridge.

Yep, he should have turned and fired on the camera man afterwards if you ask me.
That stupid sob gave the tape to al jazeera. That's a capital offense IMO.


This is one of those cases where I TOTALLY agree with you, Helladumb. :D F' al jazeera. About the soldier, I think what he did was wrong, no doubt. And some action now needs to be taken, but it shouldn't be severe at all. This poor marine likely hasn't slept in days, everyone around him is trying to kill him, and he is most likely suffering the early stages of post traumatic stress syndrome (shell shock.) You can't really blame the soldier for what he did, so a 'punishment' would be out of line. What this soldier needs is psych. treatment to insure that his unfortunate mental state is not made permanent. All I'm saying is YOU go out, miss three nights of sleep, run a marathon, than enter a buildings where evreyone is trying to kill you and you seriously fear for your life, and we'll see how you treat those that had been shooting at you, armed or not, injured or not.

-Chris

The bad thing is that although we will not see any of this on American television becuase it will be deemed too graphic and ultimately hurt the war effort, it will be shown over and over again on arabic television stations and will only hurt our objective of winning the peace over there.


It was on American TV last night. They blurred a lot of blood and cut off the tape right as the guy shoots, but I got a pretty good feel for what was going on compared to the written version. They come into a room, about 3-4 injured or dead iraqis are on the ground...one marine yells "This f***er is faking he's dead, he f***ing breathed," another yells "He's f***ing faking?!?! He moved!!" then black screen and M16 fire. The tape doesn't show the guy who got shot too well, so I couldn't tell if he was armed or if he was 'faking' or just really hurt...to hard to tell, not up to me to pass judgment...the Marines were also almost shot by a tank on their way in, so I'm sure they were in kill or be killed mode.

If there is something fishy, there will be a full investigation and trial. Remember, there are court marshalls going on for putting panties on someones head. There will never be a trial for the poor guys on the bridge.

It's interesting that you mention this because I had a rant up my sleeve from earlier so here we go...

Funny thing is, if the camera crew hadn't been there, we'd all be talking about Colin Powell’s resignation, Rice taking his position or the fact some Muslim torched himself in front of the White house right now.

I honestly doubt one of those bastards would have hesitated to shoot a Marine if the tables had been turned. The man made a choice to be in the fight by staying inside that mosque and it killed him in the end.

It wouldn't be a big deal if someone sawed a Marine's head off on camera. You wouldn't hear **** out of the world opinion in that case. Instead of burning that Marine for his actions after being deprived of sleep, having witnessed his buddies KIA in a similar situation and being shot one day earlier in the ****ing face, they oughta make copies of that video and distribute it!

I'm sorry...

It's interesting that you mention this because I had a rant up my sleeve from earlier so here we go...

Funny thing is, if the camera crew hadn't been there, we'd all be talking about Colin Powell’s resignation, Rice taking his position or the fact some Muslim torched himself in front of the White house right now.

I honestly doubt one of those bastards would have hesitated to shoot a Marine if the tables had been turned. The man made a choice to be in the fight by staying inside that mosque and it killed him in the end.

It wouldn't be a big deal if someone sawed a Marine's head off on camera. You wouldn't hear **** out of the world opinion in that case. Instead of burning that Marine for his actions after being deprived of sleep, having witnessed his buddies KIA in a similar situation and being shot one day earlier in the ****ing face, they oughta make copies of that video and distribute it!

I'm sorry...

I'm with you on this one slaty.

-Chris

This is war.
Mistakes will be made.

This tape was shown on American televison?
What network aired it?
I asked, 'cause I question why this made it to prime time but none of the beheading videos.

This is war.
I question why this made it to prime time but none of the beheading videos.

That's exactly my point. :mad:

This is war.
Mistakes will be made.

This tape was shown on American televison?
What network aired it?
I asked, 'cause I question why this made it to prime time but none of the beheading videos.


I wish I had the info on when and what channel...but I was tired and was just flipping through channels when I saw it so I don't remember...sorry...

If he was not armed then the soldier made a huge error in judgement and will be dealt with I am sure. If he was armed and posed a threat Fk'em!

The thing is, when you come into a room, and a guy you thought was dead suddenly makes a move, do you wait to see if he shoots you, or do you blast him? Apparently the shooter was already wounded, and guys from his unit had just been killed by dead guys with booby-traps. I can see why he did what he did.

The biggest problem is that the camera was rolling. But then if the terrorist had pulled the pin on a grenade and killed the camera crew and some Marines, I'm sure somebody would be blasting the Marines for being poorly trained or something. Hindsight is always 20/20.

The thing is, when you come into a room, and a guy you thought was dead suddenly makes a move, do you wait to see if he shoots you, or do you blast him? Apparently the shooter was already wounded, and guys from his unit had just been killed by dead guys with booby-traps. I can see why he did what he did.

I have no idea how I would feel, behave or react in a combat situation like these guys are in. But I would be inclined to think that I would have blasted him, too. This is guerilla war, it is not pretty.

The thing is, when you come into a room, and a guy you thought was dead suddenly makes a move, do you wait to see if he shoots you, or do you blast him? Apparently the shooter was already wounded, and guys from his unit had just been killed by dead guys with booby-traps. I can see why he did what he did.

The biggest problem is that the camera was rolling. But then if the terrorist had pulled the pin on a grenade and killed the camera crew and some Marines, I'm sure somebody would be blasting the Marines for being poorly trained or something. Hindsight is always 20/20.

I understand your point, and I don't think he should be punished but I think he will be. His big mistake was doing it when a reporter was present.

I didn't catch the part about his buddies getting killed by dead guys with booby traps....Where was that in the story? I did see the reporter say this Sites said the shot prisoner "did not appear to be armed or threatening in any way."

I'm sure we will all be able to see the video on consuption junction or al jazeera in the next few days so I will withhold my judgement.

Does anyone have a link to this video or a bittorrent for it?

-Chris

There are links to it here;

http://mparent7777.blog-city.com/read/913435.htm

(he asked for them!)

His big mistake was doing it when a reporter was present.

Yep.

Just watched that video. I think that soldier is in deep ****. Didn't look like a risky situation at all based on what you see and what the soldiers are discussing. Would be nice to see the whole thing unedited though, not just the "money shot".

The stuff towards the end of the video sure looked like BS though. Media is always looking for a story whether it exists or not.

Thanks for the link.

]His big mistake was doing it when a reporter was present.


This quote has to be one of the funniest thing i've ever read in this forum.

In other news, jihadists put out a video where they execute Margaret Hassan, a civillian woman who spent her life doing humanitarian work in baghdad.

Legal issues aside, shooting someone who was first wounded while trying to kill you and the rest of the marines with you is peanuts morally compared to executing civillian women aid workers and chopping off the heads of truck drivers on video.

If you ask me, it's unamerican and a disservice to the Iraqi people that this Marine's incident even made the news. Crimes like this should be dealt with privately during a war where so much is at stake. Morally wrong or not, putting this on television only makes it that much harder to win the war in Iraq and to restore freedom and civil society to the Iraqi people.

Just watched that video. I think that soldier is in deep ****. Didn't look like a risky situation at all based on what you see and what the soldiers are discussing. Would be nice to see the whole thing unedited though, not just the "money shot".

The stuff towards the end of the video sure looked like BS though. Media is always looking for a story whether it exists or not.

Thanks for the link.

Can you give a direct link the the video? The one from psoper isn't working too well for me.

Yep.


And I think you're stupidester for having agreed with him.

Can you give a direct link the the video? The one from psoper isn't working too well for me.

Copy and paste the link into your browser.

watching now, thanks.

No problem, very low resolution. It seemed to me that it was edited in such a way as to suggest that the insurgent that was pleading with them was the one that was susequently gunned down. Or maybe its just me.

This is war.
Mistakes will be made.

This tape was shown on American televison?
What network aired it?
I asked, 'cause I question why this made it to prime time but none of the beheading videos.

I saw it on fox news, did you see the guy on the grounds eye gushing blood before they cut video ?

Just watched that video. I think that soldier is in deep ****. Didn't look like a risky situation at all based on what you see and what the soldiers are discussing. Would be nice to see the whole thing unedited though, not just the "money shot".

The stuff towards the end of the video sure looked like BS though. Media is always looking for a story whether it exists or not.

Thanks for the link.
sorry dude , combat is a risky situation! lay off the crack

In other news, jihadists put out a video where they execute Margaret Hassan, a civillian woman who spent her life doing humanitarian work in baghdad.

Legal issues aside, shooting someone who was first wounded while trying to kill you and the rest of the marines with you is peanuts morally compared to executing civillian women aid workers and chopping off the heads of truck drivers on video.

If you ask me, it's unamerican and a disservice to the Iraqi people that this Marine's incident even made the news. Crimes like this should be dealt with privately during a war where so much is at stake. Morally wrong or not, putting this on television only makes it that much harder to win the war in Iraq and to restore freedom and civil society to the Iraqi people.
The broadcast I heard said she was raped and sodamized also.

Yep, he should have turned and fired on the camera man afterwards if you ask me.
That stupid sob gave the tape to al jazeera. That's a capital offense IMO.

it was the BBC what do you expect? **** them punks!
edgar, :/

keep this in mind... the guy was moving a little and in the soldiers mind he could have been booby trapped to explode

remember the day before that had happened and 3 marines were killed.

i stand firm when i say i would have done the same thing... what would have avoided this situation in the first place would have been to clear the room with a grenade killing everything inside and setting any booby traps off

edgar, :)

The islamofacists have no rules of war. America is the only one who plays by the rules

The islamofacists have no rules of war. America is the only one who plays by the rules

yup and its sad that nice guys always finish last... i say **** the rules of engagement but eh
edgar, :)

yup and its sad that nice guys always finish last... i say **** the rules of engagement but eh
edgar, :)
yeah but that fuels the fire for the "loony left", wich is really what sucks

Although I'm inclined to agree it's not entirely necessary when clearing a room to gather intelligence. Your job is to clear the room of hostile individuals and then collected intelligence via the old swift knee to the groin and POW/PIR search.

I have trained with Marines in CQB/doctrine and even though most of their SOP's differ from the Army, they know how to effectively clear rooms. The hard part about this situation is that you have a tired, and in this case wounded Marine that's going to be on edge after walking through the fatal funnel (the area around the door). Add this combination with an somewhat surgical ROE and tons of city blocks to clear and the only factor left is time.

I'm hoping that the Marines actions are justified...Yes the job was to clear the building. I don't know what the scenario was but I'm assuming the Marines took fire, returned fire, stacked on the building, entered and killed the crap out of everything. Then on the dead check they see a body moving. I'm guessing the Marine making a split second assesment (that's all you have time for) deemed the moving body a threat (reaching for weapon, percieved to have been booby trapped...etc.) and eliminated the threat. As far as intel gathering, I only say that if the Marine deemed the moving body to not be a threat. He would have Zip tied it and sent the bastard off to the rear with the guys pulling security or whatever. Damn, for some reason I always feel like I'm rambling...

In anycase I know somebody is going to pick the crap out of the ROE and try to fry this guy.

sorry dude , combat is a risky situation! lay off the crack

Lay off the personal remarks.

And I think you're stupidester for having agreed with him.
So you don't think executing an unarmed, severely wounded prisoner on TV was a mistake?

So you don't think executing an unarmed, severely wounded prisoner on TV was a mistake?

cause it was on tv yes in general NO! this guy is a terrioist thats not in uniform i think all is fair if you dont follow the rules to begin with

edgar, :)

So any civilians who resist are subject to summary execution after capture? Is slow beheading OK or just bullets to the head?

So any civilians who resist are subject to summary execution after capture? Is slow beheading OK or just bullets to the head?

No, not any civilian is fair game.
Those that have taken up arms against the US aren't afforded the same rights under the GC.
Look what happened during WW2 to German spies & members of the Werewolf units that were caught ....tied to a pole & shot.
Not quite the same thing as capturing a dedicated humanitarian relief worker, torturing her, possibly raping her, and then putting a bullet into her skull.

Those that have taken up arms against the US aren't afforded the same rights under the GC.

GC is one thing...
USMC's rules of warfare are another.
In fact there was a Marine spokesman on TV talking about this.
I'm pretty sure their official rules on processing wounded PWs don't involve a round in the forehead...

So you don't think executing an unarmed, severely wounded prisoner on TV was a mistake?


I think it's asinine that you and SilverScoober02 think his actions should have been determined by the presence of a camera crew in a hot war zone!

Which does not belong?

a)apple
b)banana
c)orange
d)pear
e) The unarmed, biased, bloodsucking reporter/cameraman to capture footage for everyone to armchair quarterback in the safety of everyone's home? Meanwhile, I still don't know the identity of those dead westerners they found in the streets during Fallujah's occupation!

This quote has to be one of the funniest thing i've ever read in this forum.

You said it yourself that if there wasn't a camera crew there we would be talking about arafat or some other BS. Not sure how my statement is funny.

Here's a better one for you!

Which does not belong?

a) Professor
b) students
c) more students
d) Clown juggling pineapples


Grunts are trained to kill. Period. They aren't there to hold hands and be passive when their lives may be in danger in a hot zone. Sometimes the cards aren't in their favor regarding ROE and it sucks. Given the circumstances, I would have put a controlled pair into that man's head without thinking twice. That's the job they've been trained to do just as the professor's job is to teach. You may not agree with his teaching curriculum but you certainly won't know about it due to the fact CNN isn't in class.

Here's a better one for you!

Which does not belong?

a) Professor
b) students
c) more students
d) Clown juggling pineapples


Grunts are trained to kill. Period. They aren't there to hold hands and be passive when their lives may be in danger in a hot zone. Sometimes the cards aren't in their favor regarding ROE and it sucks. Given the circumstances, I would have put a controlled pair into that man's head without thinking twice. That's the job they've been trained to do just as the professor's job is to teach. You may not agree with his teaching curriculum but you certainly won't know about it due to the fact CNN isn't in class.

I get your stupid little analogies, but please bring out a few more cause they are entertaining. :rolleyes: Besides, you are just illustrating my point that embedded reporters really don't belong and if they weren't there then we wouldn't even be talking about this crap. I don't think his actions should be any different if there is/isn't a reporter along for the ride but there was in this instance and to anyone who hasn't expirienced combat then it looks like killing execution style. The insurgent didn't look like he posed any sort of threat to the untrained eye. I don't know what went on there so I won't pass judgement. But I wouldn't be suprised if the Marine gets in trouble. Right or Wrong as that may be, I can see them making an example of him.

I don't think his actions should be any different if there is/isn't a reporter along for the ride but there was in this instance and to anyone who hasn't expirienced combat then it looks like killing execution style.

BINGO!

This is EXACTLY why media in combat is a bad idea and how these types of stories can generate negative repercussions.

This whole situation sucks but I can't say I wouldn't have done the same thing if I was there.

BINGO!

This is EXACTLY why media in combat is a bad idea and how these types of stories can generate negative repercussions.

Heck, Kerry could have eeked a couple purple hearts out of the incident. :)

Heck, Kerry could have eeked a couple purple hearts out of the incident. :)

Give it a rest Hella. That adds nothing to the conversation.

Give it a rest Hella. That adds nothing to the conversation.

I beg to differ. It adds a little perspective.

I beg to differ. It adds a little perspective.

No it doesn't. Perspective on something that you have no idea about. You think you know because you watched a few swift boat ads but you don't so let it go! Holy hell man!

never mind.

Ugh... these shameless red herrings have to stop. Hella, you take a perfectly good discussion (with some hilarious examples by Sgt. Salty) and piss on it to mark it as your own.

Start a new thread for this fodder

This thread is dead and everyone knows it. Thanks, Hella.

This petition is on fire...

I signed it, then viewed my signature 10 seconds later to find an additional 100 signatures!

http://www.petitiononline.com/as123/petition.html

Read through that... very interesting.

But since when are insurgents labelled as terrorists? I understand the logic behind that passage, but abandoning all rules of combat because we are fighting "terrorists" is a slippery slope.

Still, I agree with 99% of that letter

Read through that... very interesting.

But since when are insurgents labelled as terrorists? I understand the logic behind that passage, but abandoning all rules of combat because we are fighting "terrorists" is a slippery slope.

Still, I agree with 99% of that letter

During a war, if both/all parties involved have signed the GC, then both/all parties have an obligation to follow the rules of war.
If insurgents/terrorists make up one of the warring factions, and they do not follow the rules of war, then they are unlawful combatants, and the GC is non-applicable to them.

salty you seen this? http://www.optruth.org/main.cfm

edgar, :)

I signed the petition. I'm number 75397.

-Chris

Wow I was 63000-ish...

If you take the time to actually read some of the signatures they speak volumes. Some are just ignorant but a lot of them make damne good points.

Letter From a Fallujah Marine:

"This is one story of many that people normally don't hear, and one that everyone does. This is one most don't hear:

A young Marine and his cover man cautiously enter a room just recently filled with insurgents armed with AK-47's and RPG's. There are three dead, another wailing in pain. The insurgent can be heard saying, "Mister, mister! Diktoor, diktoor (doctor)!"

He is badly wounded, lying in a pool of his own blood. The Marine and his cover man slowly walk toward the injured man, scanning to make sure no enemies come from behind. In a split second, the pressure in the room greatly exceeds that of the outside, and the concussion seems to be felt before the blast is heard. Marines outside rush to the room, and look in horror as the dust gradually settles.

The result is a room filled with the barely recognizable remains of the deceased, caused by an insurgent setting off several pounds of explosives.

The Marines' remains are gathered by teary-eyed comrades, brothers in arms, and shipped home in a box. The families can only mourn over a casket and a picture of their loved one, a life cut short by someone who hid behind a white flag.

But no one hears these stories, except those who have lived to carry remains of a friend, and the families who loved the dead. No one hears this, so no one cares.

This is the story everyone hears:

A young Marine and his fire team cautiously enter a room just recently filled with insurgents armed with AK-47's and RPG's. There are three dead, another wailing in pain. The insurgent can be heard saying, "Mister, mister! Diktoor, diktoor (doctor)!" He is badly wounded.

Suddenly, he pulls from under his bloody clothes a grenade, without the pin. The explosion rocks the room, killing one Marine, wounding the others. The young Marine catches shrapnel in the face.

The next day, same Marine, same type of situation, a different story. The young Marine and his cover man enter a room with two wounded insurgents. One lies on the floor in a puddle of blood, another against the wall. A reporter and his camera survey the wreckage inside, and in the background can be heard the voice of a Marine, "He's moving, he's moving!"

The pop of a rifle is heard, and the insurgent against the wall is now dead. Minutes, hours later, the scene is aired on national television, and the Marine is being held for committing a war crime. Unlawful killing.

And now, another Marine has the possibility of being burned at the stake for protecting the life of his brethren. His family now wrings their hands in grief, tears streaming down their face. Brother, should I have been in your boots, I too would have done the same.

For those of you who don't know, we Marines, Band of Brothers, Jarheads, Leathernecks, etc., do not fight because we think it is right, or think it is wrong. We are here for the man to our left, and the man to our right. We choose to give our lives so that the man or woman next to us can go home and see their husbands, wives, children, friends and families.

For those of you who sit on your couches in front of your television, and choose to condemn this man's actions, I have but one thing to say to you. Get out of your recliner, lace up my boots, pick up a rifle, leave your family behind and join me. See what I've seen, walk where I have walked. To those of you who support us, my sincerest gratitude. You keep us alive.

I am a Marine currently doing his second tour in Iraq. These are my opinions and mine alone. They do not represent those of the Marine Corps or of the US military, or any other."

enough said! I'd say kill all the Iragi Insurgents!! Well after you get intel from them.

well done petty, this should be a thread of it's own.

Very interesting. The embedded reporter wrote a small article on NBCs website:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6556034/

Very good read

"The burdens of war, as you so well know, are unforgiving for all of us.


Enough said on this. :(