http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/05/AR2005110501366.html

read it and weep... pretty damn sad if you ask me...

thats big brother for you

Nobody I know









:monkey:

:sadwavey: Fourth Amendment Rights!

OK, I don't have time to read the whole thing right now but I did read the first few paragraphs. Were any individuals affected by this? By that I mean was any particular individual personally affected by what the FBI did?

I'm glad to know someone is watching my back.

It really isn't about if any one person is affected. It's about having the government having a trump card so that, if they wanted, they can listen to/arrest/tail anyone they want for just about any reason. Do you need something bad to happen to one person in particular to show you that the PA is a bad idea? Or can't you just reason through it yourself.

It really isn't about if any one person is affected. It's about having the government having a trump card so that, if they wanted, they can listen to/arrest/tail anyone they want for just about any reason. Do you need something bad to happen to one person in particular to show you that the PA is a bad idea? Or can't you just reason through it yourself.

Yes, I do need something bad to happen with it. Until it does there is no reason law abiding citizens should have to worry about it. If it helps the gov't give me an extra margin of safety than it's fine with me. People will ***** and moan if we get attacked again but God forbid we have to make a few rules to prevent it from happening. If you aren't doing anything wrong you have nothing to fear. I'd rather extremeists worry about being discovered then me worry about the FBI hearing me engage in phone sex with some girl I meet at a party 2 days before. It's fine by me.

Would you be ok with a law or prop or whatever that said you have to be patted down and searched everytime you go into or out of your house? I'm sure noone would. So where do you draw the line. History has taught us that taking away civil rights and privacy is a slippery slope that leads to too much government power and usually to coruption. Do we really need to proove this to ourselves again?



This is yet another example of how our current 'conservative' government is anything but conservative. 30 years ago, if you proposed a bill like the Patriot Act, I bet almost no republicans would have voted for it...because conservatives are supposed to limit governmental control and historically have hated intrusions on privacy. This admin should be offensive to conservatives, but you all still seem to follow him like sheep. What the hell is up with that?

Would you be ok with a law or prop or whatever that said you have to be patted down and searched everytime you go into or out of your house? I'm sure noone would. So where do you draw the line. History has taught us that taking away civil rights and privacy is a slippery slope that leads to too much government power and usually to coruption. Do we really need to proove this to ourselves again?

Well considering the fact that that is such an exaggeration of the Act that it's not even plausible I'll give you the credit anyway as I understand your point. I don't think it will ever get that way. And like I said, the Act does not personally affect me now so until it does I will keep my mouth shut.

Here's an example of how, already, the PA is out of control:

In late 2003, the Bush administration reversed a long-standing policy requiring agents to destroy their files on innocent American citizens, companies and residents when investigations closed.


Why in the world do they feel the need to keep records on people KNOWN to be innocent? That is plain old intrusion of privacy, big brother type government record keeping with no justifiable reason. Dictators do this...not leaders of democratic nations.

Here's an example of how, already, the PA is out of control:




Why in the world do they feel the need to keep records on people KNOWN to be innocent? That is plain old intrusion of privacy, big brother type government record keeping with no justifiable reason. Dictators do this...not leaders of democratic nations.


Dude, calm down and take a deep breath. Now count backwards to ten. Do you think that the gov't couldn't find out anything they wanted to know about you before the PA? You payroll, taxes, Social Security, academic and medical records are all keep places other than you're control. You're blowing this out of proportion.

But now they reserve the right to look into such info as what webpages you visit..that alone is pretty scary. I've read the anarchists handbook online (luckily it was ~10 years ago now...), but I can promise you I have NO intention of applying any of that knowledge. But if the gov't sees that I read it, they can start tracking me just for the hell of it? F*** that. I really don't think I'm blowing anything out of proportion...eroding privacy is just plain wrong.


Besides, the matter here is between COULD and WOULD...before they COULD now they have an act protecting their actions so they WILL.

But now they reserve the right to look into such info as what webpages you visit..that alone is pretty scary. I've read the anarchists handbook online (luckily it was ~10 years ago now...), but I can promise you I have NO intention of applying any of that knowledge. But if the gov't sees that I read it, they can start tracking me just for the hell of it? F*** that. I really don't think I'm blowing anything out of proportion...eroding privacy is just plain wrong.


OK, if you don't plan on doing it big deal. The worst case most Orwellian, Matrix possiblity is that they really do follow you only to find out that you're not doing anything wrong. Big deal. Who cares if they look at what you do on the internet. Honestly, do you have a gay porn fetish or something. I could care less if people see what I do. If them watching Bang Bus with me helps them make the country a safer place for other people to sit at home a BS on the internet then so be it.

I see your point...sort of the seatbelt argument. I still say they're taking it too far though.

And just to throw out the counter to the argument of 'has anyone had something bad happen to them yet'...noone's been stopped from doing a terrorist act yet because of the PA either.

I see your point...sort of the seatbelt argument. I still say they're taking it too far though.

And just to throw out the counter to the argument of 'has anyone had something bad happen to them yet'...noone's been stopped from doing a terrorist act yet because of the PA either.

That you know about, correct. Do you honestly think the administration would publicize a potential attack when they insist the going to Iraq would keep them away. Not likely.

Yes, I do need something bad to happen with it. Until it does there is no reason law abiding citizens should have to worry about it. If it helps the gov't give me an extra margin of safety than it's fine with me. People will ***** and moan if we get attacked again but God forbid we have to make a few rules to prevent it from happening. If you aren't doing anything wrong you have nothing to fear. I'd rather extremeists worry about being discovered then me worry about the FBI hearing me engage in phone sex with some girl I meet at a party 2 days before. It's fine by me.

Hmm, funny. I would imagine a lot of people said nearly those exact words about McCarthyism back in the 50s.

Hmm, funny. I would imagine a lot of people said nearly those exact words about McCarthyism back in the 50s.

Yeah, because people are still feeling the affects of that today right? Thanks for helping me prove my point.

Maybe not still feeling it today, but there were an a$$load of people that lost jobs because of the red scare crap back then.

Maybe not still feeling it today, but there were an a$$load of people that lost jobs because of the red scare crap back then.

Yes, that is true. But I doubt we'll get away with denying Muslims or people of the Arabic demographic jobs today. Times evolve and so do the policies.

Yeah, because people are still feeling the affects of that today right? Thanks for helping me prove my point.

Ok, so burning heritics at the stake for having the gull to suggest the earth is round doesn't have any ill lingering affects today, either. Should we add that to the "phsst, yeah, burning people at the stake was fine" column now? What point do you think you're making if McCarthyism "proves your point"? :lol: Maybe I missed the "Hey, McCarthyism is highly revered and still thought of a Good Idea even after all these years" memo.

/slaps my hand for arguing on teh intarweb.

What point do you think you're making if McCarthyism "proves your point"? :lol: Maybe I missed the "Hey, McCarthyism is highly revered and still thought of a Good Idea even after all these years" memo.

/slaps my hand for arguing on teh intarweb.

McCarthy Was Right

McCarthy Was Right

And just when I thought you couldn't sink any lower.

Seriously...I had little to no respect for Helladumb's stances before, now I know he's an idiot blind to the lessons that history has taught us.



I bet Hella would vote for the Nazi platform if it was dressed in Red White and Blue and had an elephant next to it...

And like I said, the Act does not personally affect me now so until it does I will keep my mouth shut.
Some guy in Germany a few years back made it a long way because of that attitude.

Yes, I do need something bad to happen with it. Until it does there is no reason law abiding citizens should have to worry about it. If it helps the gov't give me an extra margin of safety than it's fine with me. People will ***** and moan if we get attacked again but God forbid we have to make a few rules to prevent it from happening. If you aren't doing anything wrong you have nothing to fear. I'd rather extremeists worry about being discovered then me worry about the FBI hearing me engage in phone sex with some girl I meet at a party 2 days before. It's fine by me.


"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

Until the FBI leverages that conversation in an attempt to blackmail you into doing something against your will...

Seriously...I had little to no respect for Helladumb's stances before, now I know he's an idiot blind to the lessons that history has taught us.


You mean this history lesson?

"Although Joseph McCarthy was one of the most demonized American politicians of the last century, new information -- including half-century-old FBI recordings of Soviet embassy conversations -- are showing that McCarthy was right in nearly all his accusations.

"With Joe McCarthy it was the losers who've written the history which condemns him," said Dan Flynn, director of <http://www.academia.org Accuracy in Academia's recent national conference on McCarthy, broadcast by C-SPAN.

Using new information obtained from studies of old Soviet files in Moscow and now the famous Vanona Intercepts -- FBI recordings of Soviet embassy communications between 1944-48 -- the record is showing that McCarthy was essentially right. He had many weaknesses, but almost every case he charged has now been proven correct. Whether it was stealing atomic secrets or influencing U.S. foreign policy, communist victories in the 1940s were fed by an incredibly vast spy and influence network.

The conference, a gathering of old McCarthyites and younger scholars, commemorated the senator's first speech, in Wheeling, West Virginia 50 years ago, when he first held up a list of names of employees of the State Department whom, he said, were major security risks. McCarthy questioned how, in six short years after America's winning of World War II, the communist world was triumphant and had expanded to include 800 million people.

Of the lists, a key one consisted of 108 names from a House Appropriations Committee report, of persons declared as "security risks" in the State Department -- the Lee List. The House committee chairman had complained that State wasn't bothering to do anything about the suspects. Details of the list and its accusations were presented at the conference.

Speakers detailed many of the cover-ups used to smear McCarthy. Veteran journalist and teacher Stan Evans, director of National Journalism Center, told of the Tydings Committee, which had investigated McCarthy's charges of communists in government. Its report had exonerated everybody. Among the accused it stated categorically that there was no evidence against Owen Lattimore, a man McCarthy said was a major figure in the communist conspiracy. Lattimore had been Roosevelt's key advisor on China policy. Yet Evans showed evidence from 5,000 pages of FBI files on him -- files released only a few years ago to the public, although the White House had access to them.

However, evidence before the committee showed that Lattimore had supported Soviet policy at every turn, even declaring that the Stalin purge trials in Russia, "sound like democracy to me." With then-Vice President Henry Wallace in Russia, Lattimore compared concentration camps to the Tennessee Valley Authority, and later urged Washington to abandon China to communism and to withdraw from Japan and Korea. FBI chief J. Edgar Hoover, who had fed information to McCarthy, broke with him afterwards, fearing McCarthy would prejudice FBI sources of information for its criminal prosecutions.

Although most of McCarthy's cases involved actual spies and "security risks," the really important issue was that of communist influence over American foreign policy, argued Evans. Harry Hopkins, Roosevelt's closest advisor who lived in the White House, had regular contacts with Soviet intelligence. He helped bring about the disastrous Yalta and Pottsdam agreements. The Morganthau Plan, to prevent German reconstruction and starve the Germans to make them desperate enough to go communist, was the product of Laughlin Currie and Harry Dexter White at the Treasury Department. The abandonment of Chiang Kai-shek by denying military support was the product of "China Hands" led by John Stewart Service, John Patton Davies, and Lattimore. Evans described other major spy networks -- in England, the Burgess Maclean group which infiltrated Washington as well as London.

Reed Irvine, chairman of Accuracy in Media, told how he himself had been a leftist in his early career. He had been against McCarthy, but McCarthy's speeches had made him think and start to read "evidence that I had avoided." He described how all during his military career as a Marine officer and later in Japan with the U.S. occupation he had never hidden his leftist views and later had even been offered a job at the CIA. Irvine argued that real communists were only in the hundreds, but that thousands of leftists, such as he, all feared McCarthy and had wanted him discredited.

Pulling all the latest evidence together was luncheon speaker Professor Arthur Herman. His new book, "Joseph McCarthy: Reexamining the Life and Legacy of America's Most Hated Senator," and featured in the Sunday New York Times Magazine, shows the vindication of most of McCarthy's charges. Herman, who is also coordinator of the Smithsonian's Western Heritage Program, said that the accuracy of McCarthy's charges "was no longer a matter of debate," that they are "now accepted as fact." However, the term "McCarthyism" still remains in the language.

Asked whether McCarthy had understood all the forces arrayed against him, Herman said no, that McCarthy hadn't realized he'd be fighting against much of the Washington establishment. President Truman was fearful that exposures would reflect on key Democrat officials, he said, and big media and the academic world were very leftist, a heritage of the Depression and World War II. High government officials also feared investigations of their past appointments and associations with people who turned out to be communists or sympathizers.

That was the reason McCarthy was so demonized, he said.

Joe McCarthy had been a Marine air gunner, an amateur boxer, a county judge and towards his end, under constant attack, he began to drink heavily. Herman said he certainly was over his head and his fall came about after sweeping attacks on General Marshall and the Army. Senator Taft and other key supporters began to draw away from him.

If Robert Kennedy, his competent and well-connected co-counsel, had stayed on, McCarthy might have behaved more carefully, said Herman. An argument with other co-counsel Roy Cohn left Cohn in charge, but Cohn and staffer David Schine were disastrous for McCarthy. Still, McCarthy's original charges helped bring about Eisenhower's electoral victory and the defeat of the Democrats and key leftist Democratic senators such as Tydings of Maryland. Four years after his original charges, Joe McCarthy was censured by the Senate and died shortly thereafter.

There is more evidence to come. Herb Rome Stein, another speaker, who started out with the old House Un-American Activities Committee, is writing a book about the Vanona FBI intercepts and their links to other evidence from his comprehensive study in Russia of Soviet archives, made available to Westerners since the fall of communism. His book, The Vanona Secrets, will be released by Regnery Gateway this fall."

http://www.rense.com/politics6/mc.htm

I bet Hella would vote for the Nazi platform if it was dressed in Red White and Blue and had an elephant next to it...

But Donkey Nazis are ok? ;)

The gov't knows plenty about me, especially the FBI.
I was investigated about that little incident in Oklahoma City, but that story is for another day.
I don't give a **** if they know what web pages I frequent, well, with the exception of that one from Thailad, but I digress.

They know what I know, because they taught it to me.
And that should scare them.

But Donkey Nazis are ok? ;)

The gov't knows plenty about me, especially the FBI.
I was investigated about that little incident in Oklahoma City, but that story is for another day.
You better promise us. Sounds like a good story.

Ok, so burning heritics at the stake for having the gull to suggest the earth is round doesn't have any ill lingering affects today, either. Should we add that to the "phsst, yeah, burning people at the stake was fine" column now? What point do you think you're making if McCarthyism "proves your point"? :lol: Maybe I missed the "Hey, McCarthyism is highly revered and still thought of a Good Idea even after all these years" memo.

/slaps my hand for arguing on teh intarweb.

*searches for a totally irrelevant comeback comparable to this one*

Some guy in Germany a few years back made it a long way because of that attitude.

Hardly, Hitler made it as far as he did because he used a technicality to send their "Congress" (at the time Parliament) home and totally alleviate himself of any checks and balances. If our Congress feels that the Patriot Act is so wrong they should get off their asses and throw it out. Apparently they either think it is not a legitmate worry, they've got better things to do or they believe it's effective.

Everyone *****es about government secrecy and "giving up" personal freedoms but I think the majority have a list of endless things to complain about. I would bet my life the the FBI/CIA/NSA have foiled attacks on America since 9/11 that we will never know about. Possibly even well thought out, serious, 9/11 comparable attacks. The general public will never find out about these.

OK, I don't have time to read the whole thing right now but I did read the first few paragraphs. Were any individuals affected by this? By that I mean was any particular individual personally affected by what the FBI did?



Check out the sticky about Huck in the BA forum....tell me that whole s***storm isn't because of the Patriot Act. There's one for you.

Check out the sticky about Huck in the BA forum....tell me that whole s***storm isn't because of the Patriot Act. There's one for you.

Yeah, I did read that and dismissed it since it happened to me when I came home from France. I do feel really bad for him. We all make mistakes when we're young that often bear consequences larger than they should. That being said though, had he claimed citizenship this wouldn't be happening. Again, he has my sympathy and I hope things work out for him.

Check out the sticky about Huck in the BA forum....tell me that whole s***storm isn't because of the Patriot Act. There's one for you.

I was waiting for someone to bring that up. At least it sounds like it won't get passed without some major changes now that it is up for renewal. Sounds like there is a group of bi-partisan senators that will fillibuster it if not changed. We can only hope.