Red Cross Finds Detainee Abuse in Guantánamo
11-30-2004, 09:38 AM
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Red Cross Finds Detainee Abuse in Guantánamo
IIRC it used to be okay to get answers via unconventional interrogation if the prisoners were dubbed "enemy combatants" instead of "POWs". These prisoners aren't exactly young men that enlisted in the German Army -or- young men that got drafted into the Red Army, they're TERRORISTS that want us dead.
Why do we even bother having experts in counterintelligence and interrogation in the first place? How are we supposed to get into the minds of these terrorists in order to obtain their deepest & darkest secrets for fighting the WOT and ensuring our National Security?
We might as well ship them straight to Pebble Beach where they can play unlimited golf, play with the deer and splurge on a nearby all-you-can-eat four star buffet. Just put up a big ****ing fence (God help us if it's electrical) around the area and a couple guards carrying airsoft rifles and we'll be okay. We don't need to gather intelligence for the WOT anymore.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...mo_redcross_dc
In light of these allegation, I'd rotate everyone of these combatants to the BIF so each and everyone of these Taliban ****ers could get their intestines destroyed by a nightstick **** raping. 
Why do we even bother having experts in counterintelligence and interrogation in the first place? How are we supposed to get into the minds of these terrorists in order to obtain their deepest & darkest secrets for fighting the WOT and ensuring our National Security?
We might as well ship them straight to Pebble Beach where they can play unlimited golf, play with the deer and splurge on a nearby all-you-can-eat four star buffet. Just put up a big ****ing fence (God help us if it's electrical) around the area and a couple guards carrying airsoft rifles and we'll be okay. We don't need to gather intelligence for the WOT anymore.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...mo_redcross_dc
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) has accused the U.S. military of using tactics "tantamount to torture" on prisoners at the U.S. Navy (news - web sites) base in Guantanamo Bay, The New York Times reported on Tuesday...
...More than 500 people are being held at the U.S. base in Cuba, detained during the 2001 U.S. war to oust al Qaeda and the ruling Taliban from Afghanistan (news - web sites) and in other operations in the U.S. war against terror. The ICRC began visits in early 2002.
The Times said the U.S. government and military officials received the ICRC report in July and rejected its findings.
Asked by the Times about the report, a Pentagon (news - web sites) spokesman said in a statement: "The United States operates a safe, humane and professional detention operation at Guantanamo that is providing valuable information in the war on terrorism."
...More than 500 people are being held at the U.S. base in Cuba, detained during the 2001 U.S. war to oust al Qaeda and the ruling Taliban from Afghanistan (news - web sites) and in other operations in the U.S. war against terror. The ICRC began visits in early 2002.
The Times said the U.S. government and military officials received the ICRC report in July and rejected its findings.
Asked by the Times about the report, a Pentagon (news - web sites) spokesman said in a statement: "The United States operates a safe, humane and professional detention operation at Guantanamo that is providing valuable information in the war on terrorism."
11-30-2004, 09:46 AM
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My only question for you on this Salty is how do you- or for that matter how does anyone actually know these guys are "terrorists" as they are claimed to be?
None of them have been held to any due process whatsoever, for all any of us know some of these people could be completely innocent, but since nobdy even knows who they are, much less what evidence there is against them, I find it pretty incredulous that you, and people who think like you feel like you're in a position to serve as judge and jury.
One more thing you can explain to me, how can information taken from people who have been there for the last 4 years tell us anything at all about current threats? ok-3 years... still...
None of them have been held to any due process whatsoever, for all any of us know some of these people could be completely innocent, but since nobdy even knows who they are, much less what evidence there is against them, I find it pretty incredulous that you, and people who think like you feel like you're in a position to serve as judge and jury.
One more thing you can explain to me, how can information taken from people who have been there for the last 4 years tell us anything at all about current threats? ok-3 years... still...
11-30-2004, 10:04 AM
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well, i've noticed through salty's threads and posts, he reacts violently to any criticism of the military. I've yet to see salty agree with any criticism. meh, to each his own.
Last edited by constellation; 11-30-2004 at 10:07 AM.
11-30-2004, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by psoper
My only question for you on this Salty is how do you- or for that matter how does anyone actually know these guys are "terrorists" as they are claimed to be?
None of them have been held to any due process whatsoever, for all any of us know some of these people could be completely innocent, but since nobdy even knows who they are, much less what evidence there is against them, I find it pretty incredulous that you, and people who think like you feel like you're in a position to serve as judge and jury.
None of them have been held to any due process whatsoever, for all any of us know some of these people could be completely innocent, but since nobdy even knows who they are, much less what evidence there is against them, I find it pretty incredulous that you, and people who think like you feel like you're in a position to serve as judge and jury.
Originally Posted by psoper
One more thing you can explain to me, how can information taken from people who have been there for the last 4 years tell us anything at all about current threats? ok-3 years... still...
It's really a double edged argument...
Why don't we tackle the more important side of this argument and ask why the soldiers in Afghanistan had to transport the prisoners to Guantanamo Bay instead of being allowed to perform crucial PIR field interrogations to their maximum abilities? That's a good week of lost time and intelligence for the soldiers in the sand box, the very same caliber soldiers most of you would rather have invade our own country for the same reasons.
11-30-2004, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Oaf
So they might get their feathers ruffled a bit, at least we aren't lopping off heads.
'em
'emWhen the red cross finds a prisoner with dirt under their finger nails the **** hits the fan. When someone cuts off a heads of an innocent bystanders -or- detonates a car bomb next to Iraqi NG, U.S. Soldiers and civilians they're considered "Founding Father freedom fighters."
11-30-2004, 11:11 AM
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I'll only point out again that if our country were to be invaded, you and I would be labeled "insurgents" or "terrorists" by the occupying forces.
They started sending detainees there in the week or two after 9/11, those guys were not "hiding in a cave" or yielding an RPG, they just got ratted out by other detainees, or snagged on immigration charges.
And "we" have been using questionable interrogation techniques from the start, this isn't the first time the ICRC has complained about camp X-ray.
They started sending detainees there in the week or two after 9/11, those guys were not "hiding in a cave" or yielding an RPG, they just got ratted out by other detainees, or snagged on immigration charges.
And "we" have been using questionable interrogation techniques from the start, this isn't the first time the ICRC has complained about camp X-ray.
11-30-2004, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by constellation
well, i've noticed through salty's threads and posts, he reacts violently to any criticism of the military. I've yet to see salty agree with any criticism. meh, to each his own.
What do these people, including yourself, honestly expect to happen?
11-30-2004, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by psoper
I'll only point out again that if our country were to be invaded, you and I would be labeled "insurgents" or "terrorists" by the occupying forces.
So i'll ask you again...
Originally Posted by Me
Can you possibly give me a good example of how they aren't terrorists or insurgents, psoper? And don't give me hypothetical and spit out speculation either... I want solid evidence that some of these prisoners weren't hiding in a cave with an Kalishnikov -or- yielding an RPG in the streets of Baghdad.
11-30-2004, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by psoper
sure thing, as soon as you give "solid evidence" that they all were.
Honestly, it seems to me that you care more for those that would kill you than those that would protect you.
If the US was invaded, I most certainly not be an "insurgent" or "terrorist" because I have a vague idea what is "allowed" & "not allowed" in warfare.
11-30-2004, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by psoper
sure thing, as soon as you give "solid evidence" that they all were.
Who ever said anything about all of them? I specifically said "some of these prisoners" if you look back at my previous post.
It's unfortunate that some of these prisoners, although very few of them, may be wrongfully held. These types of things happen as there is always a margin for error in these type of situations.
You can't let that factor outweigh the fact the vast majority of these prisoners are, in fact, terrorists and combatants. You want to know how you separate the people that were wrongfully captured from the bad guys, psoper? You interrogate them! Imagine that...
I know it's hard for you to comprehend but there are people well trained in military counterintelligence and interrogations. Some of them have shiny brass on their collars and have attended some of the most prestigious universities in the country (I know how you like educational wallpaper). Believe it or not, these types of individuals know how to get answers effectively and know if you're hiding something or not.
I'm not just speaking out my *** either... My last "kick-back" duty before exiting the Army was as Level-C SERE aggressor attached to Aco 2/1 SWTG JFKSWCS Camp Mackall, N.C. You'd be surprised on what type of intelligence spews out of your mouth after hearing the blood curdling sound of babies crying and machine gun fire 24/7.
Last edited by Salty; 11-30-2004 at 03:42 PM.
11-30-2004, 03:54 PM
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But where do we draw the line? If we raid a country, we could hypothetically grab every able bodied man and detain them indefinitely. Doesnt this see to be a dangerous precedent?
Disclaimer: I agree that detention is necessary in most regards to extract information. However, I concur with earlier poster about the length of detention and their current pool of relevant information / intelligence.
Disclaimer: I agree that detention is necessary in most regards to extract information. However, I concur with earlier poster about the length of detention and their current pool of relevant information / intelligence.
11-30-2004, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by dub2w
But where do we draw the line? If we raid a country, we could hypothetically grab every able bodied man and detain them indefinitely. Doesnt this see to be a dangerous precedent?
You can't draw the line on this in the same respect you can't draw the line on our judicial system when someone is wrongfully accused. **** happens and it sucks. You have to take the good with the bad and run with it for the greater good.
12-01-2004, 05:36 AM
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Ya, bottom line is that the good of the detentions far outweigh the bad. If they are innocent say sorry, release them give em a grand and send em on their merry way back to Afghanistan or wherever they are from.
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