How do you form your opinions?
10-10-2005, 12:40 AM
#1
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How do you form your opinions?
I don't even know if I'm forming the question correctly, but I wonder how folks come to conclusion that become their opinions about what's going on in the world?
[example]
self analysis: Should I support [insert provocative issue]?
decision making process: Well, I like this and I don't like that, so....
conclusion: No!!!!!
or do you try and objectively weigh every factor, deliberate about it for a reasonable amount of time to ensure you're being as objective as possible, then form your opinion?
sa: should I pay my taxes?
dmp: (here is an example of one)
The critical piece is in identifying every fact and assumption and thoroughly understanding them.
1. If I don't pay my taxes, I'm risking my freedom. Do I feel strongly enough about not paying taxes to become a martyr about it?
2. I am proud of being an American, but I feel like due to our frigged up system of government that the middle class are taxed more harshly than the upper class, who, even if they have their taxes increased are better able to hire accountants and lawyers who will help me to find shelters and loopholes.....
3. If I thought that my taxes were going to truly specific sectors like socialized health care or education, I'd be less anxious about paying them, but since I have no idea and assume that my tax dollars are wasted on frivolousness, I don't like paying them.
4. ......
c: A well informed no!!!!!
Anyhow, I'm curious as to how y'all come to your conclusions; on what you base your opinions on. The tax example is just that. I have no issues in paying my taxes, but what are some issues you feel strongly about and what facts and assumptions did you base your opinion on?
[example]
self analysis: Should I support [insert provocative issue]?
decision making process: Well, I like this and I don't like that, so....
conclusion: No!!!!!
or do you try and objectively weigh every factor, deliberate about it for a reasonable amount of time to ensure you're being as objective as possible, then form your opinion?
sa: should I pay my taxes?
dmp: (here is an example of one)
Define the problem
Gather facts and assumptions
Develop solutions
Analyze each solution (conclusion/opinion)
Compare solutions (conclusion/opinion)
Select the solution (conclusion/opinion) that best addresses the problem
Gather facts and assumptions
Develop solutions
Analyze each solution (conclusion/opinion)
Compare solutions (conclusion/opinion)
Select the solution (conclusion/opinion) that best addresses the problem
1. If I don't pay my taxes, I'm risking my freedom. Do I feel strongly enough about not paying taxes to become a martyr about it?
2. I am proud of being an American, but I feel like due to our frigged up system of government that the middle class are taxed more harshly than the upper class, who, even if they have their taxes increased are better able to hire accountants and lawyers who will help me to find shelters and loopholes.....
3. If I thought that my taxes were going to truly specific sectors like socialized health care or education, I'd be less anxious about paying them, but since I have no idea and assume that my tax dollars are wasted on frivolousness, I don't like paying them.
4. ......
c: A well informed no!!!!!
Anyhow, I'm curious as to how y'all come to your conclusions; on what you base your opinions on. The tax example is just that. I have no issues in paying my taxes, but what are some issues you feel strongly about and what facts and assumptions did you base your opinion on?
10-10-2005, 12:43 AM
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I'm not directing this at anyone, just thought it was apt.
Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions.
-- Albert Einstein
-- Albert Einstein
10-11-2005, 02:05 AM
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Opinion, for me, is formed only at the point were fact can be seperated from fiction. Beyond that point, all is opinion.
In respect to political opinion, one choice I can think of is 'liberal' vs 'conservative'
1) Will human's benefit from liberalism? Yes (because at the root of liberalism is faith in human kind)
2) Will my country benefit from liberalism? Possibly, if it's embraced
3) Will I benefit from liberalism? Yes, if my country embraces it.
1) Will human's benefit from conservatism? No (because the root of the conservative ideal is country and that country's presidence above all else, which neccesarily leads to conflict between countries/ideals)
2) Will my country benefit from conservatism? Most likely, if it's embraced.
3) Will I benefit from conservatism? Yes, as long as I am a part of the conservative establishment.
In my mind, conservatives are a neccesary group who's sole job it is to control the rate at which humans become liberal. Without them, a truely liberal government would accumulate too much power too quickly (ie. USSR). However, the ultimate goal (knowingly or unknowingly) is to be completely liberal in every aspect (which entails the never endeing quest to be more liberal, since the scale is infinite in either direction).
At that particular fork in the road, I have to go with liberal, because I like humans more than I like any subset of humans and therefore recognize that humans desire that all other humans are happy/good/content.
Liberal ideals have, intertwined in them, the idea of self sacrifce (minor sacrifice, major sacrifice, either) for the good of all humans, while conservative ideals have, intertwined in them, the idea of self preservation and pride (weather it's at the national or personal level). The whole idea of 'conservative' nearly equalls the idea of 'preservation'. This idea is flawed because of the dynamic nature of society and human experience. To deny progress is to deny being human (moreso to deny being alive), and progress is inexorably linked with being liberal because being liberal is the very acknowledgement that progress is inevitable; and because of that, being conservative is the acknowledgement that said progress CAN happen too fast.
For these reasons, I choose to support and concur with the opinions of people who are actually liberal-minded, as opposed to those who are conservative (or preservationist) minded (regardless of weather they call themselves liberal or conservative...many left wing activists are actually very conservative in their message).
In respect to political opinion, one choice I can think of is 'liberal' vs 'conservative'
1) Will human's benefit from liberalism? Yes (because at the root of liberalism is faith in human kind)
2) Will my country benefit from liberalism? Possibly, if it's embraced
3) Will I benefit from liberalism? Yes, if my country embraces it.
1) Will human's benefit from conservatism? No (because the root of the conservative ideal is country and that country's presidence above all else, which neccesarily leads to conflict between countries/ideals)
2) Will my country benefit from conservatism? Most likely, if it's embraced.
3) Will I benefit from conservatism? Yes, as long as I am a part of the conservative establishment.
In my mind, conservatives are a neccesary group who's sole job it is to control the rate at which humans become liberal. Without them, a truely liberal government would accumulate too much power too quickly (ie. USSR). However, the ultimate goal (knowingly or unknowingly) is to be completely liberal in every aspect (which entails the never endeing quest to be more liberal, since the scale is infinite in either direction).
At that particular fork in the road, I have to go with liberal, because I like humans more than I like any subset of humans and therefore recognize that humans desire that all other humans are happy/good/content.
Liberal ideals have, intertwined in them, the idea of self sacrifce (minor sacrifice, major sacrifice, either) for the good of all humans, while conservative ideals have, intertwined in them, the idea of self preservation and pride (weather it's at the national or personal level). The whole idea of 'conservative' nearly equalls the idea of 'preservation'. This idea is flawed because of the dynamic nature of society and human experience. To deny progress is to deny being human (moreso to deny being alive), and progress is inexorably linked with being liberal because being liberal is the very acknowledgement that progress is inevitable; and because of that, being conservative is the acknowledgement that said progress CAN happen too fast.
For these reasons, I choose to support and concur with the opinions of people who are actually liberal-minded, as opposed to those who are conservative (or preservationist) minded (regardless of weather they call themselves liberal or conservative...many left wing activists are actually very conservative in their message).
Last edited by MVWRX; 10-11-2005 at 02:44 AM.
10-11-2005, 02:35 AM
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I suppose my response obliterates the small 'problem solving' scale of the original example. Maybe I'm insane for thinking about all humans in the future and now as equall entities in the grand scheme of things. But one thing is true; personal pride hurts more than it helps, and most liberal ideals focus around ignoring personal pride for the betterment of everyone.
Honestly, who's life was ever made better purely based on their own pride in themselves...noone's. But whole civilizations have fallen because of an individual's pride in themselves.
Honestly, who's life was ever made better purely based on their own pride in themselves...noone's. But whole civilizations have fallen because of an individual's pride in themselves.
Last edited by MVWRX; 10-11-2005 at 02:38 AM.
10-11-2005, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by MVWRX
In respect to political opinion, one choice I can think of is 'liberal' vs 'conservative'
1) Will human's benefit from liberalism? Yes (because at the root of liberalism is faith in human kind)
1) Will human's benefit from liberalism? Yes (because at the root of liberalism is faith in human kind)
Now if you mean liberal in the sense of sex in the streets, late term abortions, and the hijacking of marriage by butt buddies, then is that truly "liberalism?"
Since insane liberalism will destroy my society, I don't want anything to do with it.
Modern (insane) liberalism is a mental disorder.
lib·er·al ( P ) Pronunciation Key (lbr-l, lbrl)
adj.
1)Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.
Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.
Of, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism.
Liberal Of, designating, or characteristic of a political party founded on or associated with principles of social and political liberalism, especially in Great Britain, Canada, and the United States.
2)Tending to give freely; generous: a liberal benefactor.
Generous in amount; ample: a liberal serving of potatoes.
3)Insane Liberalism- characterized by nutjobs who are always anti-conflict, against nationalism or patriotism, pro abortion, anti-status quo, anti-border, anti-national language, pro america-hater, pro flag-burning, pro big govt, anti-nuclear family, and think "family values" is a derogatory term. Insane liberalism moves beyond the tolerance of different ideas, by forcing minority opinions, lifestyles, and immoral practices upon popular society.
Last edited by HellaDumb; 10-11-2005 at 10:03 AM.
10-11-2005, 01:36 PM
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If y'all want to move this into a discussion about the distinction between liberal and conservative, I can move that to another thread.
If the topic isn't worthwhile, I'd have gotten the message if there weren't any responses.
This is what I was looking for. MV, you walked right into it.
Ok, so I'd ask you to back up your comments.
Noted. Please cite some examples.
Noted. Please cite some examples.
From my personal perspective, I zealously agree with both of those statements. However, I also vehemently disagree.
You're being too general.
What is a liberal. I know that this is just an online car forum, but I think it's not too outrageous for me to ask you to reference some real examples that would solidify your assertions.
Counters:
THE root? There are no other fundamental ideologies that would actually be more of a basis for liberalism?
Can this not be said of Conservatism? Maybe conservatives feel as though they are the 'honest broker' for their fellow man, and even though their brotherman may not appreciate the mechanisms the conservatives use to moderate the activities of his neighbor, it's actually most prudent in the long run. Maybe conservatives deeply car about their fellow man, but just seem to be unimaginative and hemmed up by the beauracracy they've created in the administration towards their fellow man.
If you were to ask me, I feel as if there are really no differences between how liberals and conservatives feel about their fellow man. In general, both groups have selfish people and both sides have selfless people.
However, I wouldn't state any of what I just said as my opinion because I just don't think I know enough to form an opinion.
If the topic isn't worthwhile, I'd have gotten the message if there weren't any responses.
This is what I was looking for. MV, you walked right into it.
Originally Posted by MVWRX
Opinion, for me, is formed only at the point were fact can be seperated from fiction. Beyond that point, all is opinion.
In respect to political opinion, one choice I can think of is 'liberal' vs 'conservative'
1) Will human's benefit from liberalism? Yes (because at the root of liberalism is faith in human kind)
2) Will my country benefit from liberalism? Possibly, if it's embraced
3) Will I benefit from liberalism? Yes, if my country embraces it.
1) Will human's benefit from conservatism? No (because the root of the conservative ideal is country and that country's presidence above all else, which neccesarily leads to conflict between countries/ideals)
2) Will my country benefit from conservatism? Most likely, if it's embraced.
3) Will I benefit from conservatism? Yes, as long as I am a part of the conservative establishment.
In respect to political opinion, one choice I can think of is 'liberal' vs 'conservative'
1) Will human's benefit from liberalism? Yes (because at the root of liberalism is faith in human kind)
2) Will my country benefit from liberalism? Possibly, if it's embraced
3) Will I benefit from liberalism? Yes, if my country embraces it.
1) Will human's benefit from conservatism? No (because the root of the conservative ideal is country and that country's presidence above all else, which neccesarily leads to conflict between countries/ideals)
2) Will my country benefit from conservatism? Most likely, if it's embraced.
3) Will I benefit from conservatism? Yes, as long as I am a part of the conservative establishment.
(because at the root of liberalism is faith in human kind)
(because the root of the conservative ideal is country and that country's presidence above all else, which neccesarily leads to conflict between countries/ideals)
From my personal perspective, I zealously agree with both of those statements. However, I also vehemently disagree.
You're being too general.
What is a liberal. I know that this is just an online car forum, but I think it's not too outrageous for me to ask you to reference some real examples that would solidify your assertions.
Counters:
-because at the root of liberalism is faith in human kind
-because the root of the conservative ideal is country and that country's presidence above all else, which neccesarily leads to conflict between countries/ideals
-because the root of the conservative ideal is country and that country's presidence above all else, which neccesarily leads to conflict between countries/ideals
Can this not be said of Conservatism? Maybe conservatives feel as though they are the 'honest broker' for their fellow man, and even though their brotherman may not appreciate the mechanisms the conservatives use to moderate the activities of his neighbor, it's actually most prudent in the long run. Maybe conservatives deeply car about their fellow man, but just seem to be unimaginative and hemmed up by the beauracracy they've created in the administration towards their fellow man.
If you were to ask me, I feel as if there are really no differences between how liberals and conservatives feel about their fellow man. In general, both groups have selfish people and both sides have selfless people.
However, I wouldn't state any of what I just said as my opinion because I just don't think I know enough to form an opinion.
10-11-2005, 02:11 PM
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Well...the liberal vs conservative was just a really good (loaded) example. What I was trying to say is that, with political opinion, I form mine by evaluating in this order:
1) is it good for everyone on earth
2) is it good for the US
3) is it good for me
I'm not sure it's possible to provide 'examples' of the things I asserted. Faith in human beings is about as fundamental an ideal as you can get, and it really is at the root of a liberal mind set (protecting personal rights over corporations rights, protecting privacy, protecting the right to do what you want as long as it doesn't hurt someone else, etc)
I see your point that many conservatives look out for their fellow man; however I would suggest that conservatives use the following scheme for making political decissions:
1) is it good for the US
2) is it good for me
3) is it good for everyone on earth.
But, in discussing how one forms opinions, it is impossible to not involve opinion. After all, if my 'opinion' was based purely on fact, it would itself be fact.
I didn't 'walk into' for anything, I just had a moment of inspiration about a dying thread, so I figured I'd stir up some discussion. Please don't pretend you're some type of forum pupet-master that sets up threads purely to illicit a desired response. THAT is letting your own pride blind you, something most conservatives should be very warry of.
1) is it good for everyone on earth
2) is it good for the US
3) is it good for me
I'm not sure it's possible to provide 'examples' of the things I asserted. Faith in human beings is about as fundamental an ideal as you can get, and it really is at the root of a liberal mind set (protecting personal rights over corporations rights, protecting privacy, protecting the right to do what you want as long as it doesn't hurt someone else, etc)
I see your point that many conservatives look out for their fellow man; however I would suggest that conservatives use the following scheme for making political decissions:
1) is it good for the US
2) is it good for me
3) is it good for everyone on earth.
But, in discussing how one forms opinions, it is impossible to not involve opinion. After all, if my 'opinion' was based purely on fact, it would itself be fact.
I didn't 'walk into' for anything, I just had a moment of inspiration about a dying thread, so I figured I'd stir up some discussion. Please don't pretend you're some type of forum pupet-master that sets up threads purely to illicit a desired response. THAT is letting your own pride blind you, something most conservatives should be very warry of.
Last edited by MVWRX; 10-11-2005 at 02:22 PM.