The cost for you or I buying a part has NOTHING to do with how much it would cost Subaru to buy that same part. Not even in the same ballpark.

 

Oh - but it is. add 15% even at wholesale cost or manufacture to the vehicle parts and you add 15% to the car... Just where do you expect the difference in cost v. price to be made up?

 

Add any more cost to the SRT-4 and it goes outside the buyer market (age & price point) that Neon's are aimed toward.

The SRT-4 is a good deal for a FWD platform as compared to its own level of competitors. But if I were looking to buy in that price category and had the option of an SRT-4, Impreza RS or a used WRX...the decision would be easy & quick, WRX. Outside of finding a stripper Forester 2.5XT (turbo).

For folks that don't understand why they should spend a day or so driving around in a rental Neon (I have) and then you'll see things crystal clear. For example most recently my best friends wife had her car totalled in September and had _free_ access for a month to a Neon sedan via insurance (to replace her '96 Mazda Protege) and she hated every mile. Basically the car drove like hell and this was a brand new unit with only 56 miles on it when she picked it up. Long story short she wanted out of that thing ASAP, and it wasn't even costing her a dime out of her pocket!
Keep in mind she's not a 'car gal' yet her complaints were all over the pace including performance items such as the brakes (spongy), suspension ("it leans alot") and the overall feel of the car having a low build quality (which it does). The Neon she had was fully optioned and 'top line' though not an SRT-4. An SRT-4 adds more Tq & HP but otherwise its the same as a regular Neon, **** poor. Oh, and the crashworthiness ratings for the Neon are sub-par as compared to the class leading Impreza. That too is a performance item worth every penny for my own or families life.
I could also tell a tale of a Neon I'd rented for my sister in August after her husband totalled her '97 Saturn SC. She drove it for three weeks and again as a non-car person she reported that it "sucked" and was "awful". Thats not my words, thats from the mouths of actual end users who had no expectations. I only rented the Neon as my hook-up at Enterprise was doing me a solid and gave me the lowest cost option available, Neon. There's a reason for that.

I'm sure Dodge could CTRL X & V some AWD hardware to the Neon platform and still it might not cost as much as an STi. Would it automatically become a contender or comparable option, no as all wheel drive does not an STi make.
It would be interesting if Ford released an AWD Focus and Hyundai the same with the Tiburon. They would compete against each other and the WRX on price and packaging overall with maybe the SRT-4 (AWD) squeaking in. As I see the market currently the SRT-4 is off by itself in left field. The Saturn 'Redline' coupe 2+2 when it debuts maybe its direct competitor at a similar price point and market focus.

As for the STi at $32K it's a steal considering all the work done to it as noted by Meridock and what it offers. Evidence of this is that to get the same level of performance requires spending at least $56K on an M3 and that it out runs & dances $50K+ offerings from Porsche including the perinneal '10 Best' winning Boxster as well as the famous Carrera and the Carrera 4 (AWD).
Heck the STi is only hair behind in performance (top speed) to the $110K+ GT2, which is a factory spec racer. Oh but some might say we don't get leather seat coverings, mats or a radio which comes standard on the Carerra 4 and GT2.

Either the STi is a 'supercar' priced insanely low for its specific & overall performance or the options from other manufacturers are fat with unnecessary 'features' (NAV & Sunroof), overpriced for no reason other than the name embalzoned on their trunk lid and/or overrated.
You make the choice but no matter how one looks at the STi either it should cost _more_ or perform less well for the money Subaru wants. As converesely BMW & Porsche will never (and I very rarely say never) drop the prices on their offerings nor will you see them offering 'cash back' incentives to help move product.
The same cannot be said for the SRT-4 nor for that matter the EVO 8, which is honestly a serious competitor though only in handling on a track and even then by a slim margin.
Don't talk to me about mod potential as that is of no regard. Anyone can shoe horn anything they want under the hood to make their car move faster, like Saturn recently did with an SC at Bonneville to set a land speed record. Mods that aren't factory available and on the car at time of purchase are not germane.

In the end the STi is a great deal though its not for everyone. Comparing the STi to an SRT-4 just doesn't make any sense though if the SRT-4 is all one can afford and its what floats your boat then go for it. But call a spade a spade.

BTW, Meridock knows me IRL and can verify that I'm not a Subie "dealer" or salesperson.

- Janq

"...This kind of $hit sells itself." - Mykelti Williams, 'Heat'

 

Meridock is correct.

Further if it costs 15% OEM then there is going to be an additional 2-3% profit added to that item.

As I said before maunfacturers, including Subaru, are in the business to make a profit. Nobody can afford to just give stuff away. Not even Toyota who has more money than God or GM who as based on results doesn't know how or like to make a profit.

A 15% maunfacturer cost is 'cost'. Now you add up all the car pieces, account for economies of scale, predict sales figures based on mystery math and you can build up a price relative to what the market will bear. That result is what's called 'Retail Price'.

Nobody nowhere sells anything at cost, except for the US Govt. which has a long history of paying retail prices for product, land and services then selling those same items in over supply at their cost or less. Often times sold back to the general public who's taxes paid for the items in the first place. But I digress. Which reminds me I need to get back to work.

- Janq

 

STI Wagon baby!!!

 

this is nothing about STis
but new legacy is hott as my girl
dual exhaust and just pimping

 

Please explain Subaru's rationale because it is very un-understandable to me.

 

Meisner,

The stock STi suspension is very sporting and I'd say in the upper ranges of performance for OEM setups. The EVO just happens to be tuned slightly better. The STi is focused on 'multi-terrain' use including gravel, soft road, 'city streets' (i.e. potholes & ruts) as well as racing 'tarmac' (smooth tar surface). The EVO is tuned primarily for tramac. Now thats not to say one couldn't drive it over the same surfaces as an STi because you could, but the ride will be noticeably more 'harsh' than in the STi.

For those STi owners that wish to track their car and can live with a harsher ride there are mods available that can duplicate if not better the suspension performance of the EVO. Subaru left that to the end user to asses and adjust knowing there is a huge aftermarket to cover this need. Also don't forget we Americans tend to like even our sportiest cars to have a little cush in them for daily driving. How many folks do you know that bought EVO's or STi's for racing only and drive them only on the track?
I personally don't know of any.

BTW, folks have been harping on the STi having a less sharp suspension than the EVO since March. But if you reference the numbers as posted by C&D, Auotweek and others the EVO leads the STi around tight tracks by only a second or less. On longer tracks the STi wins. Further the STi beats the EVO in every other quantifiable dimension other than the skidpad. Again due to its suspension setup, and possibly tire choice.

The EVO is great for those that need the most extreme of tools for the track and don't care about daily driveability. This is the tool to have if you absolutely must post the fastest times for the class/price point. Thats assuming your last name is Guerney, Andretti, or Penske. Otherwise driver skill/ability reduces the slim advantage.
The STi on the other hand can run with if not beat an EVO in the hands of a skilled handler. The only downside as nearly anyone that has spent 200 or miles in the car is getting used to the counter-intuitive handling characteristics of the drivetrain (front diff & DCCD in 'Auto' mode) and what I call 'spooky' handling characteristics of the rear end (springs) under cornering. With practice and lots of driver to machine interface tuning one can get used to and exploit the STi to equal an EVO. Or one could just set the DCCD to manual and install the JDM "lowering" springs.
Either way the EVO advantage shrinks to nothing more than driver ability, or inability.

Any person fortunate enough to be in the position to decide EVO vs STi for purchase is not in a bad place. Either car is streetable and fun. It's just a matter of taste and marque preferance.

- Janq

 

I drive a WRX! I have been on this board, NASIOC, and Clubwrx longer than you have.

Is it not ok that I ask some questions???

I started out to mod my wrx then i realized that would be a mistake with the STi and EVO out. Just not worth it for the time and money to mod a wrx.

So my debate has been which platform to upgrade to. I love my wrx and have nothing against Subaru. I have never owned a DSM car so have nothing against them as well. Some complain about Mitsubishi's shady reputation as a car company but in the next breath I read that Shiv likes the evo better and calls it a very robust car and not a DSM at all.

Janq-
Thanks for your reply. I think you know I respect you and your opinions. It's just that I have this problem. Some things about the STi just don't make sense to me. The evo says what it is and lives up to that. It is a pure sports car. It seems the STi is not. Peopel have called it (stock) a sedan that is very fast (yes faster than the evo in the straights).

How could I call the STi a fast sedan and call the evo a sports car:
seats (less aggressive than the wrx)
handling (tuned down as you all say)
steering
vibrating hood scoop and whale tail. (does the whale tail actually function to redirect air to give an aerodynamic benefit? It would be hard to believe if it flaps in the wind.)

It's like if Porsche would put out their 996 twin turbo but held back to make it handle for the lesser driver. No one would ever put up with this. What if Porsche put out the 996TT with a bad understeer problem? Who would take the car seriously?

Why is it any different for us? No most of us cannot afford the 996tt but does that mean we do not deserve the handling of one? Just because a Subaru or DSM is not Porsche does that mean they cannot put out a pure sports car which is NOT prone to understeer?

Of course the STi has DCCD and a closed front lsd and no radio which would indicate a very sporty car which was intended for the track. I mean there's no radio indicating this car was NOT designed to be a daily driver.(I mean, how many cars come with no radios???). It just seems the STi doesn't know what it wants to be whereas in the evo it is all very clear.

 

Meisner,

I have an answer for all of your questions, but I'm about to hit the road for the day. I'll come back tonight and post a detailed reply. Your questions are valid but you're missing a few things.

To be quick, the EVO and STi are both sports cars as well as sedans. The differences are minimal between the two both in mechanical alotment as well as performance in specific and overall. The STi leads the EVO in starighline performance but the EVO has a higher top end. Tit for tat in my book.
Step back for a moment and lets look at two other competing models. Say the Porsche Turbo and the Ferrari Modena. One costs more than the other. One seats two plus two (I've seen this IRL!) while the other seats only two. One is avilable as a convertible, a very fast convertible, while the other is a hardtop. One circles a track faster than the other while the other has a higher top end.
At the end of the day though both are sports cars, including the convertible/roadster variant, and it matters not how the suspension of one verus the other is setup or optimized. In the end they both are the same just not twins. The EVO & STi are more same than different.

This whole debate reminds me of an episode fromt he orignal Star Trek in which Kirk coes across a planet where the people are exactly the same except for one discerning item. Some people are white skinned with a bold black stripe covering the left side of their body while the others are white skinned with a black stripe covering the right side of their body. The two people have warred for millenia and ended up eliminating each other down to just one surving member of each 'race'. Thats where Kirk & Co. step in. They beam both guys up as they are literally trying to kill each other bare handed. Kirk breaks up the fight and asks what the heck are they thinking about. The 'left stripe' man (portrayed by Charles Napier aka 'The Riddler') goes on to explain that he's better & superior because the other guy has his stripe on the right rather than left. Kirk laughs out loud...

Thats what we have here fellas, left stripe versus right stripe.
Step back and look at the whole woods as right now folks are seeing only individual grass blades.

- Janq

"...What do you know as a hawk, that you don't know as Arthur? Think!..." - Merlyn

 

What came first?
The chicken or the egg?

If it wasn't for the EVO coming, Subaru may not have brought the STi to the US...

If it wasn't for the WRX, Mitsu may have not introduced the EVO to the US...

If it wasn't for both of these, the Neon SRT may not have been produced!

What a great time we live in when we have SO many great choices!!!

I also CHOSE a Forester XT for my wife.

This is like the Camaro/Mustang wars all over again...

I think of the STi and EVO as close friends and the 6000 pound giant sport utes of today's society as the enemy (everyones got one...).

My .02

 

Well not being in America i thought i put my view from a different angle.

WRX Sti's have been made every year for about the last 10 years.
For Japan and Exported to Asia, Australia, NZ and UK?

Every so often they produce limited number "special" Sti more power lighter etc etc. Last two were the Legacy s401 and Impreza s202. (Also maybe an Sti Forester)

But I don't think the USD Sti falls into that catergory.

So i would expect the US will get WRX Sti and in 2005.

However expect limited numbers to be brought in.

Here in New Zealand (pop 4 million) WRX sti are sold each year without fail. I find it hard to believe that in pop 250+ million American's that there will be not enough demand each year for a small number of WRX Sti.

Subaru/Sti use the WRX Sti as a flagship for the brand - it's actually the the Legacy/Outback/Forester that makes the profits.

From what i can see Subaru are going to use the 2.5lt engine as a base for alot of their range in the US - Legacy, Baja, WRX Sti, Forester - It's their usual trick of platform sharing to keep costs down.

So it means the marginal cost to produce the Sti is low so subaru can always have low production runs each year. That been the standard practice elsewhere for many years.

Remember this the first year Subaru have offered the Sti in the US (pent up demand) - so it's been hard for them to know the exact number of cars to offer to mkt.

So if as people say the numbers sold have been lower than expected - expect less to be offered next year.

My thoughts anyway.

BTW : I think the USD WRX Sti is probably the best stock version produced by STi since the 22b