05 STI predictions
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Originally posted by Sir-Knight
personally I think the STI is a touch over priced... why go STI when you can go beamer or benz. Other than we in the community who know the heritage, the car is just not considered as valuable as a beamer or benz.
Throw in 5 point harness racing seats and a rollcage for maybe 2 grand more and I'd seriously consider not eating every other day to save for this car. :P Not that I'm already trying to cut the fat elsewhere to save up for at least a TS :3
personally I think the STI is a touch over priced... why go STI when you can go beamer or benz. Other than we in the community who know the heritage, the car is just not considered as valuable as a beamer or benz.
Throw in 5 point harness racing seats and a rollcage for maybe 2 grand more and I'd seriously consider not eating every other day to save for this car. :P Not that I'm already trying to cut the fat elsewhere to save up for at least a TS :3
STi is Lucy Liu while Benz is Joan Lunden in track pants.
Which would you rather see?
As for BMW, the STi is directly comparable to the M3 which was Subaru's mark during its development for USDM. Only difference is leather (don't need it), SMG (nice but also not needed), and $15K...which I like having in my bank account.
Subaru has its own heitage same similar to Benz & BMW, only its not based in bourgeois pretentiousness or keeping up with the Jones'. How many BMW & Benz owenrs as a precentage know anything about their lines racing heritage? I'd bet maybe 2%!
As for Subaru eveyone knows what their deal is. Besides, it's Mercedes & BMW who both were staunch believer sin RWD platforms that now are following Subaru's lead, along with Audi, and will begin offering AWD in every model they offer.
A person who buys a Subaru is not likely to be a BMW or Merc owner and vice versa. Subis heritage is diametrically oppsed to what BMW & Merc owners emote.
As an STi owner, and lifetime BMW nut, I can say this car is worth every penny Subaru is asking for it. What you get for the price of entry both in performance and hardware is a steal darn near grand theft auto.
- Janq
"Drive it like you stole it!" - Unknown
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Originally posted by Janq
For $41K he could have gotten a slightly used M3 or a new 330i Performance which is better than the previous gen M3. The G35C 6MT base comes really well setup with eveythign one needs and only costs $33K.
Nice...!
- Janq
For $41K he could have gotten a slightly used M3 or a new 330i Performance which is better than the previous gen M3. The G35C 6MT base comes really well setup with eveythign one needs and only costs $33K.
Nice...!
- Janq
Nice comparrison between Lucy Liu and Joan Lunden, lol. For me I'd rather have the performance than the glitz for a resonable price since I can't afford an M3(drool). Never liked Merc styling too much, but I would put that asside to own one, hehe.
Last edited by NYCSTI; Oct 19, 2003 at 12:46 AM.
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From: Ottawa Ontario
Car Info: not a subie
That may be true, but the fact remains that the general thought/concensus/belief or what have you is that the BMW or Mercs are more valuable cars.
The performance and heritage aside, people just think the beamer is worth more once it comes off the lot.
I myself would take the STI in a heartbeat over anything else, but people like my parents or my insurance company and later on the resale value of the car, would most likely say the beamer is worth more.
The performance and heritage aside, people just think the beamer is worth more once it comes off the lot.
I myself would take the STI in a heartbeat over anything else, but people like my parents or my insurance company and later on the resale value of the car, would most likely say the beamer is worth more.
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Originally posted by Sir-Knight
That may be true, but the fact remains that the general thought/concensus/belief or what have you is that the BMW or Mercs are more valuable cars.
The performance and heritage aside, people just think the beamer is worth more once it comes off the lot.
I myself would take the STI in a heartbeat over anything else, but people like my parents or my insurance company and later on the resale value of the car, would most likely say the beamer is worth more.
That may be true, but the fact remains that the general thought/concensus/belief or what have you is that the BMW or Mercs are more valuable cars.
The performance and heritage aside, people just think the beamer is worth more once it comes off the lot.
I myself would take the STI in a heartbeat over anything else, but people like my parents or my insurance company and later on the resale value of the car, would most likely say the beamer is worth more.
But seriously I agree with you though my point is/was that based in fact the STi in specific gives the M3 such a run for its money that outside of a buyers overt need to impress and express his wealth (or lack there of considering the associated M3 car payments) there really is no difference what so ever.
I can add a radio, NAV and leather seat coverings as well as even a custom fit Recaro seat to my STi and have a direct equivalent to the M3 and still have change in my pocket for gas & maint budgeting.
Some though care more about a books cover than the actual words inside.
- Janq
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Ahem, but the misjudgement of the majority picked Gore. Thank God we use electoral votes (the best way for general concensus) and not popular votes or else just a few cities would elect the president every year.
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Sorry about the politics but I had to respond to the cheap shot.
Just a "corrupt" conservative answer for a "commy" liberal statement. All in good spirit Janq.
Ahem, but the misjudgement of the majority picked Gore. Thank God we use electoral votes (the best way for general concensus) and not popular votes or else just a few cities would elect the president every year.
__________________________________________________ _
Sorry about the politics but I had to respond to the cheap shot.
Just a "corrupt" conservative answer for a "commy" liberal statement. All in good spirit Janq.
Last edited by jtibbitt; Oct 20, 2003 at 08:23 AM.
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Originally posted by jtibbitt
__________________________________________________ _
Ahem, but the misjudgement of the majority picked Gore. Thank God we use electoral votes (the best way for general concensus) and not popular votes or else just a few cities would elect the president every year.
__________________________________________________ _
Sorry about the politics but I had to respond to the cheap shot.
Just a "corrupt" conservative answer for a "commy" liberal statement. All in good spirit Janq.
__________________________________________________ _
Ahem, but the misjudgement of the majority picked Gore. Thank God we use electoral votes (the best way for general concensus) and not popular votes or else just a few cities would elect the president every year.
__________________________________________________ _
Sorry about the politics but I had to respond to the cheap shot.
Just a "corrupt" conservative answer for a "commy" liberal statement. All in good spirit Janq.
I was wondering why it took so long for a righty to respond to my overhand left. I was only messin' around to support my point.
JTibbitt thanks for the spirited counter point.
- Janq
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If there is NO 2005 STi well then that will make the EVO vs. STi debate all that much easier.
Why would SOA announce a 2005 STi at the end of this year when we are only going into 2004? It seems smart to allude that there may not be an STi by SOA. This would creat a (false) rare car factor would would create (false) excitement and drive up price.
But, I don't believe this will happen. In fact I saw a chart on NASOIC (somewhere, don't ask me where I forget but you could search if you like ) on Subaru's production schedule for the next few years and it DID include the STi.
But why would it not? The ej257 was developed for OUR crappy gas. Why put all this money into a new powerplant for a certain region then just to pull the car?
Also, these are the days of horsepower wars. The neon is bringing serious power for only 20k. The evo is out in America and will surely be beefed up in the years to come. The new Supra will come out in 2005 as will the GTO.
If SOA does NOT put out a STi in 2005 I'd say they were not being a competitive company. In fact, I bet you and I will be able to get them at invoice in 6 months (as people are starting to do with evo's).
And if not... evo here I come.
Why would SOA announce a 2005 STi at the end of this year when we are only going into 2004? It seems smart to allude that there may not be an STi by SOA. This would creat a (false) rare car factor would would create (false) excitement and drive up price.
But, I don't believe this will happen. In fact I saw a chart on NASOIC (somewhere, don't ask me where I forget but you could search if you like
) on Subaru's production schedule for the next few years and it DID include the STi. But why would it not? The ej257 was developed for OUR crappy gas. Why put all this money into a new powerplant for a certain region then just to pull the car?
Also, these are the days of horsepower wars. The neon is bringing serious power for only 20k. The evo is out in America and will surely be beefed up in the years to come. The new Supra will come out in 2005 as will the GTO.
If SOA does NOT put out a STi in 2005 I'd say they were not being a competitive company. In fact, I bet you and I will be able to get them at invoice in 6 months (as people are starting to do with evo's).
And if not... evo here I come.
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Originally posted by Janq
Untill further 'official' notice one can hope and dream...
- Janq
Untill further 'official' notice one can hope and dream...
- Janq
But, as cars like the evo are easily showing it, the STi isn't the end all be all in nicely priced mega-sports cars. Cars like the SRT4 are showing that these cars can be made dirt cheap (ok it's no evo or STi but it is damn fast). If you don't think the neon will give the evo/STi competition well think again. There IS a reason the evo so new to this market is already going for invoice.
If there is no STi there will be an evo or something else better. Even Shiv picks the evo over the STi so if there is no 2005 STi I won't loose any sleep...
...but there will be
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Meisnerboy,
Sometimes saying little says the most, hence my response.
The facts are until SoA makes an official statement, the best an STi wannabe can do is hope for a '05 model.
As for the price drops you mentioned with the EVO, that has nothing to do with the SRT-4 nor is it specific to the sport compact market. GM as a whole made no profit this year, fact. Ford is rumored by some folks to be near or at bankruptcy. The imports as a whole have gained an additional _15%_ market share (!) in only 3 years, fact. And don't foget that one of the traditional 'Big Three' is no longer a domestic and was acquired lock, stock & barrel by of all folks Daimler, an import. Again, a fact that no one in the industry saw coming nor would have predicted even two years prior.
The SRT-4 may have relatively high power numbers for a FWD sedan and it maybe 'inexpensive' to purchase (I'll refrain from calling it 'cheap' so as not to hurt folks feelings) but it is not in the same class. Just the same as the EVO and STi are not in the same class as the M3 or M5 although they have same/similar performance characteristics. One has to compare apples to apples, not apples to pears, oranges and apple flavored 'BlowPops' (SRT-4).
Further, the reason for prices across the board dropping has less so much to do with competition, nothing to do with the SRT-4 cost of entry, nor the STi having no OEM radio/mats or for that matter the EVO having go-kart like handling. The bottom line is that car sales as a whole are stagnating as buyers continue to want SUV's and their hybrids (car like trucks). There are now more light truck sales than there are car sales. That has had a direct impact on sales of niche mobiles including domestics such as the Z06, Mustang and the cancelled Firebird & Camaro.
Cars such as the M3, M5, STi, EVO, and SRT-4 are ultra niche market vehicles. They do not and never will represent the wants & wishes of a buying majority as they are nothing more than adult toys. They feed the need of a marginal amount of buyers but more importantly fuel the fires set by industry marketing folks toward the regular & pedestrian models sold to the average and buying majority. Its the regular cars that turn a maximal profit, not niche 'dream' cars. GM isn't making $10K per Z06 but they are when it comes to the Escalade. Ford won't make a huge amount of money on the GT500 though they will on the Ford F-150. Subaru makes its money on Legacy and Forester sales as well as the regular Impreza lineup. Oh, and lets not forget cash back to the inidividual dealer via financing kickbacks. GM & Ford add their 'sales' via GMAC and Ford Motor Credit into their respective bottom lines.
One last item to keep in mind is we are in the midst of a recession! Folks seem to have totally forgotten about this. Unemployment is at an all time high for the last decade. People are still being layed off daily. Formerly employable people remian jobless for as long as three years and still have no opportunities. People have exhausted their life savings and are living off credit cards. Some folks have even dropped their health insurance as they cannot afford to pay it as they struggle to stay solvent. Military families are striving to stay afloat on one salary as mom's & dads or even both are fighting for Democracy and paying paid a pittance while dodging bullets daily. Lots of ish is going on right now, and its all bad. Just look around. How many friends do you have with enough if any disposable income to seriously debate buying a new car much less a niche car with relative super powers? In my world I can count them on half of one hand.
The great equalizer right now is the economy. The Cobb salad days of the '90's are over and now most everyone is brown bagging PBJ sandwiches and/or going deep in to personal credit debt to maintain a comfortable standard of living. Personal savings numbers went from near nil at 1.5% during the good ole days to negative as of yesterday.
Those my friend are the facts. Poor, broke and unemployed folks don't give a care about STi's, EVO's and a hopped version of a Neon that nearly no one drives without having an Enterprise or Hertz sticker on the rear bumper.
Subaru, DSM and Benz (oops, I meant 'Dodge') could make 100K units each of the STi, EVO and SRT-4 but that would do no good when obviously based on sales there are less than 1/10 that many _total buyers_ out there. Otherwise there wouldn't be so many EVO's sitting on dealer lots.
Just think about it for a minute, and you might see the bigger picture.
If not let me know and I'll get you a sketch.
Regards,
- Janq
"There is nothing like a dream to create the future." - Victor Hugo
Sometimes saying little says the most, hence my response.
The facts are until SoA makes an official statement, the best an STi wannabe can do is hope for a '05 model.
As for the price drops you mentioned with the EVO, that has nothing to do with the SRT-4 nor is it specific to the sport compact market. GM as a whole made no profit this year, fact. Ford is rumored by some folks to be near or at bankruptcy. The imports as a whole have gained an additional _15%_ market share (!) in only 3 years, fact. And don't foget that one of the traditional 'Big Three' is no longer a domestic and was acquired lock, stock & barrel by of all folks Daimler, an import. Again, a fact that no one in the industry saw coming nor would have predicted even two years prior.
The SRT-4 may have relatively high power numbers for a FWD sedan and it maybe 'inexpensive' to purchase (I'll refrain from calling it 'cheap' so as not to hurt folks feelings) but it is not in the same class. Just the same as the EVO and STi are not in the same class as the M3 or M5 although they have same/similar performance characteristics. One has to compare apples to apples, not apples to pears, oranges and apple flavored 'BlowPops' (SRT-4).
Further, the reason for prices across the board dropping has less so much to do with competition, nothing to do with the SRT-4 cost of entry, nor the STi having no OEM radio/mats or for that matter the EVO having go-kart like handling. The bottom line is that car sales as a whole are stagnating as buyers continue to want SUV's and their hybrids (car like trucks). There are now more light truck sales than there are car sales. That has had a direct impact on sales of niche mobiles including domestics such as the Z06, Mustang and the cancelled Firebird & Camaro.
Cars such as the M3, M5, STi, EVO, and SRT-4 are ultra niche market vehicles. They do not and never will represent the wants & wishes of a buying majority as they are nothing more than adult toys. They feed the need of a marginal amount of buyers but more importantly fuel the fires set by industry marketing folks toward the regular & pedestrian models sold to the average and buying majority. Its the regular cars that turn a maximal profit, not niche 'dream' cars. GM isn't making $10K per Z06 but they are when it comes to the Escalade. Ford won't make a huge amount of money on the GT500 though they will on the Ford F-150. Subaru makes its money on Legacy and Forester sales as well as the regular Impreza lineup. Oh, and lets not forget cash back to the inidividual dealer via financing kickbacks. GM & Ford add their 'sales' via GMAC and Ford Motor Credit into their respective bottom lines.
One last item to keep in mind is we are in the midst of a recession! Folks seem to have totally forgotten about this. Unemployment is at an all time high for the last decade. People are still being layed off daily. Formerly employable people remian jobless for as long as three years and still have no opportunities. People have exhausted their life savings and are living off credit cards. Some folks have even dropped their health insurance as they cannot afford to pay it as they struggle to stay solvent. Military families are striving to stay afloat on one salary as mom's & dads or even both are fighting for Democracy and paying paid a pittance while dodging bullets daily. Lots of ish is going on right now, and its all bad. Just look around. How many friends do you have with enough if any disposable income to seriously debate buying a new car much less a niche car with relative super powers? In my world I can count them on half of one hand.
The great equalizer right now is the economy. The Cobb salad days of the '90's are over and now most everyone is brown bagging PBJ sandwiches and/or going deep in to personal credit debt to maintain a comfortable standard of living. Personal savings numbers went from near nil at 1.5% during the good ole days to negative as of yesterday.
Those my friend are the facts. Poor, broke and unemployed folks don't give a care about STi's, EVO's and a hopped version of a Neon that nearly no one drives without having an Enterprise or Hertz sticker on the rear bumper.
Subaru, DSM and Benz (oops, I meant 'Dodge') could make 100K units each of the STi, EVO and SRT-4 but that would do no good when obviously based on sales there are less than 1/10 that many _total buyers_ out there. Otherwise there wouldn't be so many EVO's sitting on dealer lots.
Just think about it for a minute, and you might see the bigger picture.
If not let me know and I'll get you a sketch.
Regards,
- Janq
"There is nothing like a dream to create the future." - Victor Hugo
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For those of you looking to buy an STi the following was forwarded to my attention;
From: Dwight Senior [mailto:dsenior@town-motors.com]
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 7:14 PM
Subject: 2004 Subaru Impreza WRX STI
Just a note! I currently now have 3 STI's in stock. A fourth should be here by the end of next week. In stock are 2 Blue and 1 Black. Silver is the one on the way. If any of these interest you let me know. None are being held for anyone right now.
Sincerely,
Dwight D. Senior
Subaru Sales Internet Manager
Town Motors Subaru
135 South Dean Street
Englewood, NJ 07631
(201) 568-5200 ext. 6017
dsenior@town-motors.com
So as the saying goes; "Get in where ya fit in"!
- Janq
From: Dwight Senior [mailto:dsenior@town-motors.com]
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 7:14 PM
Subject: 2004 Subaru Impreza WRX STI
Just a note! I currently now have 3 STI's in stock. A fourth should be here by the end of next week. In stock are 2 Blue and 1 Black. Silver is the one on the way. If any of these interest you let me know. None are being held for anyone right now.
Sincerely,
Dwight D. Senior
Subaru Sales Internet Manager
Town Motors Subaru
135 South Dean Street
Englewood, NJ 07631
(201) 568-5200 ext. 6017
dsenior@town-motors.com
So as the saying goes; "Get in where ya fit in"!
- Janq
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Janq,
With all due respect, you sound like a dealer to me. It feels like you are pushing a panic button in one post and pimping 3 STi's in the next.
At this time there are people on this board buying STi's for $1000 below MSRP. That is a fact. I hope that very soon we will be able to easily get the STi for invoice as well.
If Subaru doesn't like the fact of this economy they don't have to play. They don't have to release a 2005 STi. But, the evo IS out as well as a slew of other sports cars: s2000 (now with more competitive 2.2Li), EVO, SRT4, 350Z, RX-8, Supra(2005), on and on. These truely ARE the horsepower wars and WE win. If SOA feels they cannont compete in this market they could lower the STi price or they could try to spin a rare factor to the car. (Marketing hype.) As far as I can see that is the ONLY reason they would NOT choose to bring the car to America. Let's face facts: a STi is a factory modded WRX just as an EVO is a factory modded Lancer.
We know that the Lancer is a $12-15k car. Does it cost DSM another $12-15k to turn it into an EVO? I doubt it.
The STi NEW engine and tranny is fabricated and has gone through R&D. This is where the vast expense of building is incurred. At this point I would hazard to guess that a WRX tranny costs Subaru the same amount as a STi; the ej257 costs the same as our wrx 2.0, as with IC's, turbos, on and on. Not much price difference. So, there would seem to be a larger profit margin with the STi.
In this case the smart thing for Subaru to do would be to DROP the wrx and just import the STi. IMHO
With all due respect, you sound like a dealer to me. It feels like you are pushing a panic button in one post and pimping 3 STi's in the next.
At this time there are people on this board buying STi's for $1000 below MSRP. That is a fact. I hope that very soon we will be able to easily get the STi for invoice as well.
If Subaru doesn't like the fact of this economy they don't have to play. They don't have to release a 2005 STi. But, the evo IS out as well as a slew of other sports cars: s2000 (now with more competitive 2.2Li), EVO, SRT4, 350Z, RX-8, Supra(2005), on and on. These truely ARE the horsepower wars and WE win. If SOA feels they cannont compete in this market they could lower the STi price or they could try to spin a rare factor to the car. (Marketing hype.) As far as I can see that is the ONLY reason they would NOT choose to bring the car to America. Let's face facts: a STi is a factory modded WRX just as an EVO is a factory modded Lancer.
We know that the Lancer is a $12-15k car. Does it cost DSM another $12-15k to turn it into an EVO? I doubt it.
The STi NEW engine and tranny is fabricated and has gone through R&D. This is where the vast expense of building is incurred. At this point I would hazard to guess that a WRX tranny costs Subaru the same amount as a STi; the ej257 costs the same as our wrx 2.0, as with IC's, turbos, on and on. Not much price difference. So, there would seem to be a larger profit margin with the STi.
In this case the smart thing for Subaru to do would be to DROP the wrx and just import the STi. IMHO
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Originally posted by meisnerboy
Janq,
With all due respect, you sound like a dealer to me. It feels like you are pushing a panic button in one post and pimping 3 STi's in the next.
Janq,
With all due respect, you sound like a dealer to me. It feels like you are pushing a panic button in one post and pimping 3 STi's in the next.
No, I'm not a dealer.
No, I have zero affiliation with any dealer.
No, I'm not "pimping" STi's. Thats ridiculous.
No, I'm not "pushing a panic button". If folks wish to panic thats there own choice/decision.
I get requests from folks left and right for info toward available STi's. I have been getting those requests for for months. I've been posting info toward available STi's both from dealers as well as private sale units from folks that needed to get out of their cars due to personal economic reasons since the month after the STi debuted. If you had read some of my other posts you would know that. As I stated before, I have my STi and what happens in '05 is of no consequence to me.
Having worked in the industry, including work for Subaru, for a decade ten years ago and currently being out of the industry entirely but CEO of my own company I feel pretty confident in saying that dropping the WRX and importing the STi only makes zero business since. The reasons are plainly obvious.
I do agree with you though that the STi is a factory modded WRX, same similar to the 330 & M3, the Carrera & GT2 and even the Crown Victoria and the police package 'Interceptor'. Many if not most performance vehicles are genetic derivatives of lesser bretheren. Thats been the case going all the way back in automotive history to the day of the Hupmobile.
One last item.
Just because a product or service has a retail price of X, Y or Z does not mean thats what it cost the manufacturer to produce/provide the product or service. So again, I agree with you that it does not cost DSM "another $12-15k to turn it [Lancer] into an EVO?". I don't have to doubt it though. I know that for sure and fact. Otherwise they would make zero dollars in profit. Businesses are in the business to make a profit, first and foremost. Everything else is secondary to supporting rule number one.
I can't and am not speaking for Subaru.
But one thing I do know is that they can more than compete in this economy. They are the largest they've ever been (in revenue and market share) yet have survived numerous economic recessions. This ain't the first low point they've seen or survived and I'm sure it won't be the last. Same can't be said for Dodge nor SAAB and possibly some other future acquisitions.
Well thats all I have to say and its been fun.
Oh, be sure to stop by 'Janq Automotive' as our STi's are priced to move at just $40K including 'free' floor mats and a e-Mirror on us! Call today as this offer is good only while supplies last!
- Janq
Last edited by Janq; Oct 21, 2003 at 07:44 PM.
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Originally posted by meisnerboy
Janq,
The STi NEW engine and tranny is fabricated and has gone through R&D. This is where the vast expense of building is incurred. At this point I would hazard to guess that a WRX tranny costs Subaru the same amount as a STi; the ej257 costs the same as our wrx 2.0, as with IC's, turbos, on and on. Not much price difference. So, there would seem to be a larger profit margin with the STi.
Janq,
The STi NEW engine and tranny is fabricated and has gone through R&D. This is where the vast expense of building is incurred. At this point I would hazard to guess that a WRX tranny costs Subaru the same amount as a STi; the ej257 costs the same as our wrx 2.0, as with IC's, turbos, on and on. Not much price difference. So, there would seem to be a larger profit margin with the STi.
Dude, this is like saying a Z06 motor is just a "little" more than the stock vette one. In order to make warranty-able HP the manufactuerer has to play closer attention to tolerances and the "little" things - all this adds up when you look at the entire driveline and continues on to the rest of the car. Let's break it down - add 15-20% in the part manufacture of the motor, tranny, and differentials... Add 15% for that snazzy gauge pack, add 15% for the teeth pulling Brembos, and add 20% for the HID... Now take a semi loaded WRX... Knock off 1% for the missing radio and floormats...
Optional Equipment and Other Items
ASPEN WHITE/DARK GRAY KNIT --
17'' BBS MULTI-SPOKE FORGED ALUMINUM WHEEL SET $3,035
REAR SPOILER $395
SHORT THROW SHIFTER $345
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Suggested Retail Price $28,320
Add 15% (~4000) for 'tolerances'
sounds like an STi...
I agree that the STi is pricey compared to a SRT4, but add AWD to the SRT4 and see the price hop up very quickly.