Alignment with camber bolt question
 

I just had an alignment done on my STI with SPC camber bolts. Shop, that did an alignment is very reputable and famous suspension/brakes/tires shop in Mountain View. They have their own race and autox cars and also organize track events (mostly for Shelby club though).

They put camber bolts in the upper mount hole (front strut). I remembered seeing recommendation to use lower holes and asked that question when I was picking up car. They said that upper hole is correct and that's what Subaru and camber bolt specs says also and they always use upper hole and never had any issues. They were able to dial -2.5 deg front camber (with a weight on a drivers seat) and bolts were far from being maxed out. I was surprised as I saw -2...-2.3 max on other STIs with a camber bolt). My car has RCE Black springs and WL swaybars. Stock shocks.

After coming home I've found that sticky:

[url=http://www.iwsti.com/forums/gd-suspension-handling-stiffening/133341-camber-bolt-faq-tutorial.html]Camber Bolt FAQ and Tutorial - Subaru Impreza WRX STI Forums: IWSTI.com[/url]

that strongly advices not to use upper holes at the front.

I then found bolts manual that mentions upper position: [url]http://www.spcalignment.net/instructions/81270-INS_WEB.pdf[/url]

and here's another one for WL camber bolts that recommends "lower" only for race cars:

[url]http://www.whiteline.com.au/instruction/Z201_KCA4%28size%29.pdf[/url]

So, who's right here? I'm a bit lost as I'm not a suspension pro at all. Is Subaru so specific and I really needs to use lower holes?

Thanks!

I had the same issue, took it to a shop to install camber bolts and they put them in the top hole, had them move it to the lower hole since I had read that thread you posted above. Took it to get an alignment and the guy was surprised to see dual camber bolts, but once he got to aligning the car realized he could get more camber from having adjustable bolts in both the upper and lower hole.

Ended up with -3.0 in the front, and that was far from maxed out. I'm running KYB AGX struts with Tanabe springs on an 02 WRX. Haven't had problems so far and have been autoxing etc. for a few months.

Always set the aftermarket lower one to max negative and use the top bolt to adjust.

Yeah, that's really weird as a master tech from another very reputable shop (they prep race cars and support their customers during track events) also mentioned upper hole. And he did that with Subarus. None of these suspension shops that I dealt with are Subaru specific (but they do have Subaru customers also). So, why the right hole is the lower one when even SPC manual says it should be the upper one?

I'm OK with -2.5deg camber, just don't want bolts to slip.

Thanks!

I saw somewhere that having it in the upper hole does give it more camber, it makes sense but it's definitely not the safest thing to do.

[QUOTE=Heedz;3240868]I saw somewhere that having it in the upper hole does give it more camber, it makes sense but it's definitely not the safest thing to do.[/QUOTE]

Could you explain that? I thought that regular bolt is generally stronger than a camber one and if aftermarket camber bolt goes into upper hole we have one camber plus regular bolt. Otherwise if camber bolt goes into lower hole we have two camber bolts (OEM plus aftermarket)?

So, since both macpherson holes are lobed you can adjust via top and bottom. So The top one takes more of a beating so the stock lobed bolt there and the aftermarket in the bottom. Usually the aftermarket one has a bigger lobe so if its in the top it would generally push the knuckle in more thus adding more negative camber. I'm just saying having more lobe on the top will give you more but it is not safe since it's not as strong. Not saying you should do it lol.

[QUOTE=wwrx;3240853]I just had an alignment done on my STI with SPC camber bolts. Shop, that did an alignment is very reputable and famous suspension/brakes/tires shop in Mountain View. They have their own race and autox cars and also organize track events (mostly for Shelby club though).

They put camber bolts in the upper mount hole (front strut). I remembered seeing recommendation to use lower holes and asked that question when I was picking up car. They said that upper hole is correct and that's what Subaru and camber bolt specs says also and they always use upper hole and never had any issues. They were able to dial -2.5 deg front camber (with a weight on a drivers seat) and bolts were far from being maxed out. I was surprised as I saw -2...-2.3 max on other STIs with a camber bolt). My car has RCE Black springs and WL swaybars. Stock shocks.

After coming home I've found that sticky:

[url=http://www.iwsti.com/forums/gd-suspension-handling-stiffening/133341-camber-bolt-faq-tutorial.html]Camber Bolt FAQ and Tutorial - Subaru Impreza WRX STI Forums: IWSTI.com[/url]

that strongly advices not to use upper holes at the front.

I then found bolts manual that mentions upper position: [url]http://www.spcalignment.net/instructions/81270-INS_WEB.pdf[/url]

and here's another one for WL camber bolts that recommends "lower" only for race cars:

[url]http://www.whiteline.com.au/instruction/Z201_KCA4%28size%29.pdf[/url]

So, who's right here? I'm a bit lost as I'm not a suspension pro at all. Is Subaru so specific and I really needs to use lower holes?

Thanks![/QUOTE]

Let me clarify this for you.

1) The SPC instructions are for the REAR strut; which in stock form does not contain any camber adjustment. So when you use an SPC camber bolt in the REAR, you want to put it in the UPPER HOLE.

2) This is NOT THE SAME SITUATION FOR THE FRONT. The front has a stock adjuster which is a completely different design than the SPC bolt. The stock adjuster is fatter and stronger than the SPC bolt. The SPC bolt will not work as designed in the front upper hole due to the stock adjuster's specially shaped holes in the strut's cleavis. For this reason, the NASIOC/iWSTI camber bolt FAQ does not recommend doing this.

3) The FRONT LOWER hole is a normal round 14mm bolt... the same as the rears upper and lower bolts... this is the kind of bolt the SPC camber bolt is DESIGNED to replace, and will utilize the tabbed washer and the lobe.

4) Whiteline's instructions specifically say "Do NOT remove or replace any factory adjustable bolts. KCA4(size) are designed to replace standard bolts only" That means: DO NOT PUT THE CAMBER BOLTS IN THE FRONT UPPER.

5) The front upper hole is totally not what the SPC camber bolt was designed for. However, it can be installed there and will probably get additional camber over the stock adjuster. HOWEVER, due to the shape of the holes, the washer and bolt head will not have as much contact area with the strut cleavis. Strut cleavis bolts rely on squeezing the strut cleavis so tightly that enough friction develops between the cleavis and the knuckle that it does not move. This makes putting SPC bolts in the upper front hole of our Subaru's a BAD IDEA. Also, if the bolt allows the alignment to slip, it is worse in the front upper because there is more room to slip. This would cause significantly worse slip alignment than if the bolts were installed in the lower front hole.


This "reputable shop" apparently does not know much about Subaru's. I wonder if they even installed the camber bolts correctly. Improper installation can be disastrous if the bolts allow the alignment to suddenly slip.

[QUOTE=chimchimm5;3240917]Let me clarify this for you.

1) The SPC instructions are for the REAR strut; which in stock form does not contain any camber adjustment. So when you use an SPC camber bolt in the REAR, you want to put it in the UPPER HOLE.

2) This is NOT THE SAME SITUATION FOR THE FRONT. The front has a stock adjuster which is a completely different design than the SPC bolt. The stock adjuster is fatter and stronger than the SPC bolt. The SPC bolt will not work as designed in the front upper hole due to the stock adjuster's specially shaped holes in the strut's cleavis. For this reason, the NASIOC/iWSTI camber bolt FAQ does not recommend doing this.

3) The FRONT LOWER hole is a normal round 14mm bolt... the same as the rears upper and lower bolts... this is the kind of bolt the SPC camber bolt is DESIGNED to replace, and will utilize the tabbed washer and the lobe.

4) Whiteline's instructions specifically say "Do NOT remove or replace any factory adjustable bolts. KCA4(size) are designed to replace standard bolts only" That means: DO NOT PUT THE CAMBER BOLTS IN THE FRONT UPPER.

5) The front upper hole is totally not what the SPC camber bolt was designed for. However, it can be installed there and will probably get additional camber over the stock adjuster. HOWEVER, due to the shape of the holes, the washer and bolt head will not have as much contact area with the strut cleavis. Strut cleavis bolts rely on squeezing the strut cleavis so tightly that enough friction develops between the cleavis and the knuckle that it does not move. This makes putting SPC bolts in the upper front hole of our Subaru's a BAD IDEA. Also, if the bolt allows the alignment to slip, it is worse in the front upper because there is more room to slip. This would cause significantly worse slip alignment than if the bolts were installed in the lower front hole.
[/QUOTE]

Makes sense, thank you for an explanation! Although I don't see mentioning about rear strut in SPC manual it makes perfect sense! Could you recommend an alignment shop that knows this Subaru specific issue? Preferably in Santa Clara County...

[QUOTE=chimchimm5;3240917]Let me clarify this for you.

1) The SPC instructions are for the REAR strut; which in stock form does not contain any camber adjustment. So when you use an SPC camber bolt in the REAR, you want to put it in the UPPER HOLE.

2) This is NOT THE SAME SITUATION FOR THE FRONT. The front has a stock adjuster which is a completely different design than the SPC bolt. The stock adjuster is fatter and stronger than the SPC bolt. The SPC bolt will not work as designed in the front upper hole due to the stock adjuster's specially shaped holes in the strut's cleavis. For this reason, the NASIOC/iWSTI camber bolt FAQ does not recommend doing this.

3) The FRONT LOWER hole is a normal round 14mm bolt... the same as the rears upper and lower bolts... this is the kind of bolt the SPC camber bolt is DESIGNED to replace, and will utilize the tabbed washer and the lobe.

4) Whiteline's instructions specifically say "Do NOT remove or replace any factory adjustable bolts. KCA4(size) are designed to replace standard bolts only" That means: DO NOT PUT THE CAMBER BOLTS IN THE FRONT UPPER.

5) The front upper hole is totally not what the SPC camber bolt was designed for. However, it can be installed there and will probably get additional camber over the stock adjuster. HOWEVER, due to the shape of the holes, the washer and bolt head will not have as much contact area with the strut cleavis. Strut cleavis bolts rely on squeezing the strut cleavis so tightly that enough friction develops between the cleavis and the knuckle that it does not move. This makes putting SPC bolts in the upper front hole of our Subaru's a BAD IDEA. Also, if the bolt allows the alignment to slip, it is worse in the front upper because there is more room to slip. This would cause significantly worse slip alignment than if the bolts were installed in the lower front hole.


This "reputable shop" apparently does not know much about Subaru's. I wonder if they even installed the camber bolts correctly. Improper installation can be disastrous if the bolts allow the alignment to suddenly slip.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for a more clarified explanation and more. I have a hard time explaining sometimes lol.

[QUOTE=wwrx;3240951]Makes sense, thank you for an explanation! Although I don't see mentioning about rear strut in SPC manual it makes perfect sense! Could you recommend an alignment shop that knows this Subaru specific issue? Preferably in Santa Clara County...[/QUOTE]

Not sure if they do alignments but mann engineering in santa clara does a lot of suspension work specialized in subarus...gary is a good guy he'll be able to help you out or steer you in the right direction

If nothing else, Auto Innovations isn't all that far as they are in Milpitas. They did install the camber bolts for my car and I have not had any problems (granted mine were for the rear setup, but I would still completely trust them with the installation of the fronts as well).

[QUOTE=flukewrx;3241294]If nothing else, Auto Innovations isn't all that far as they are in Milpitas. They did install the camber bolts for my car and I have not had any problems (granted mine were for the rear setup, but I would still completely trust them with the installation of the fronts as well).[/QUOTE]

Yup... since the OP is in Mountain View, there's no reason not to go to Auto Innovations or Mann.

I usually go to AI. They don't recommend putting a camber bolt in the front lower for safety reasons, but they will do it if you want.

Also... not that the SPC camber bolt (aka Whiteline/SPC/whatever) has a torque spec of about 75 ft/lbs. The stock straight bolt has a spec of 125 ft/lbs.

[URL="http://www.hrsprings.com/products/triple-c/"]And the H&R Triple-C camber bolts [/URL]have a torque spec of 105 ft/lbs (thicker design than the SPC's). I'm going this route.

[IMG]http://www.hrsprings.com/scripts/phpthumb/phpThumb.php?src=/images/products/accessories/TripleC2.jpg&w=390&h=600&q=90[/IMG]