chimchimm5

iTrader: (9)

To add more fuel to this fire, when I did these I only had time to install one side before I had to run out and do an errand. So I had the stock one on one side and the aftermarket on the other.... and I had to compensate because my car behaved differently when turning one direction vs the other. That is, the stock side took longer to respond because it all had to squish/comply before turning really took place.

I had to think hard on that run so I didn't over steer the car.

Definitely recommend doing this cheap and highly beneficial mod.

Scoobywax

iTrader: (18)

Same here! I got 1 side done and figured it would be easier with a 14mm ratchet then a standard box. So I drove it to autozone and it was very noticeable on the drivers side vs pas.

Funny thing is too over bumps now its less harsh. I think the vibration and shock transfers throughout the whole car better now.

JelloChex

iTrader: (6)

Which mounts are the STI mounts you are referring to?

I do want to upgrade to the Aluminum Control Arms at some point, but not sure if the ALK is still an upgrade or not at that point. I'm thinking if you get the Caster Adding mounts that the ALK may not be much more (if any) in addition to that, but the Non-Caster adding mounts may find the ALK beneficial. I'm not 100% on that though so I would still need to do more research.

I could be completely wrong on this point, but the addition of the ALK seems similar to me in the same way the Beatrush Rear Diff Mount Support Bar works. (Obviously not the same part of the car or same problem, this is just a comparison point). The ALK seems like you are adding on an additional item for bracing of a component that was not originally on the car, but adds to the overall performance. However, upgrading the bushings inside the Arms or upgrading the Arms to the STI Aluminum Caster Adding Arms could result in a similar overall result. Much the same as you have the options of upgrading the Rear Diff Bushings in the Rear Subframe (like the TiC / Kartboy Rear Diff Mount Bushings) or you can replace the factory bar and bushings altogether with something like the GT Spec Rear Differential Tie Brace (where you replace the bar and the bushings are already installed in the new bar). Then the 3rd option is the one I originally mentioned with the Beatrush Rear Diff Mount Support, where it seems like you leave your factory stuff in place and then bolt an additional item on top of everything to get the desired outcome.

chimchimm5

iTrader: (9)

Not quite... There are 3 things the ALK can do for the GD/GG:
1. Stiffer bushing which reduces dynamic toe alignment changes, at the expense of more transmission of suspension bumps to the chassis/cabin
2. anti lift geometry is reduced which softens up the suspension (provides more on-power front traction) at the expense of a little more "dive" during braking and "nose up" during acceleration
3. caster is increased which provides more steering centering and reduces the dynamic camber loss while turning due to SAI

Now, not all "ALK" type products do all 3, and each product can have differing levels of effects.

Bracing the mount point would probably only contribute to 1, indirectly. But the original motivation for the ALK is 2, and 3 is a bonus.

It's also interesting to note that Subaru incorporated all these improvements into the following generation GR Impreza. The only thing that can still be done with the GR is a stiffer mount bushing.

04GG

iTrader: (33)

ALK doesn't add any bracing, it slightly repositions where the rear of the arm sits and adds additional built in caster since the bushing is at an angle inside that mount. Sounds like you understand the caster portion, but it doesn't add anything besides that. That alone, makes an easily noticeable improvement. No more mid corner slop, just proper tracking, especially as you start to roll more power on exit. Some of that is the firmness of the bushing, but also the added caster translates into the car feeling a lot more planted under load.

The mounts I'm talking about are really the group N STI control arm bushings; I'm not sure if they come with the arms or not, but they're a decent step up from stock WRX. I called them mounts because I forgot the name and they "mount" the rear of the arm, so I said mounts. The arms I picked up are the non-caster adding ones; would have liked the caster adding ones, but these were a good price and in really good condition for the price. The bushings I believe are identical to stock in positioning and angle, just firmer than the WRX.

Impreza Group N STi Control Arm Bushings, SubaruGenuineParts.com

Interestingly, the compound used in the STI bushings has a similar increase in sharp vibration transmission, but also feel slightly less harsh than the ALK did. Larger things like speed bumps and road undulations feel much more controlled, but the small, sharp hits (small pothole, cracks, etc...) are more noticeable. I had the standard ALK not the "comfort" bushing one, so I'd expect the STI is more like the comfort version.

JelloChex

iTrader: (6)

I think I might have worded it poorly the first time around.

What I was getting at is that there seems to be 3 levels of components that could potentially be adjusted to receive a potentially similar outcome.

1) Replace just the bushings. (Potentially the lowest cost solution, but if paying someone else it may incur additional charges for installation)

2) Replace the whole component (The STI Aluminium Control Arms would replace both the arms & the corresponding bushings. One version is just adding the benefit of being a lighter piece. The other one adds the additional Caster component which is essentially what the ALK is doing).

3) Add an additional piece to the vehicle that was not there originally (This is where the comparison is coming in to play. I wasn't meaning that the ALK adds bracing. It was more that to get the desired results the ALK adds an additional piece to the vehicle to get the additional benefits.)




To me, you have these 3 levels of changes

1) Bushings (roughly no change to the overall weight of the vehicle).

2) Replacing the piece (potentially improving the results by getting the additional benefits, while also reducing overall weight ... somewhat).

3) Adding an additional component (Again, getting the additional benefits of the piece, but at this point adding additional weight to the vehicle ... somewhat).


The bushings are essentially upgraded in all situations. How stiff the bushing is can vary depending on what is purchased, but essentially all solutions are Stiffer than the stock bushings.

Basically, if the results of adding the Caster Adding Aluminum Control Arms would NOT be improved upon by adding the ALK (or somehow downgraded by having the ALK in place, though I can't see a reason why that would happen) then to me it makes more sense to get the Control Arms only.

If the results of adding the ALK WOULD improve upon the results of adding the Aluminum Control Arms then it is potentially worth it to get both items.

To me, it seems like the ALK does essentially what the Caster Adding Control Arms does for the front of the car, but at a cheaper price.

04GG

iTrader: (33)

The arms aren't that much lighter, to my surprise. I couldn't compare until I had the originals off, so I did some research and found a pretty definitive answer on Nasioc stating that it is a 2 lb savings per side, so a small difference but still lighter. IMO, the aluminum arms are stiffer and deflect less, for an additional benefit.

I do feel the ALK alone is probably the most cost effective single upgrade that is definitely complimented by other things like sways, links, other bushings and braces. It depends on what you're after, but by itself, single best upgraded I think I did on the WRX handling wise.

chimchimm5

iTrader: (9)

Agreed the ALK makes a huge difference... but I'll also venture to say that until the driver reaches at least an intermediate level of skill (ie track day intermediate) and/or are close to competitive in autox, the driver will not be able to take advantage of the ALK.

I'm not saying don't do it but it's sure satisfying when you've got midcorner on-power understeer and then the ALK fixes that.

wombatsauce

iTrader: (7)

Weird, I ordered my TiC cowl braces with my Konis, D_Rex extenders and subframe lock bolts and they all showed up last week I think. The Simply Subie ones look pretty nice though, and probably easier to install since you can get to the top bolts easier than the TiC braces.

I weighed them when I had piles of aluminum and steel arms in my garage, they were about the same but I do not remember exactly. Two pounds sounds like a lot more than I saw with the arms and such all in front of me, ball-joints and bushings all in place - but ok.

You do the STi aluminum control arms only to add stiffness, and in some rare cases, to increase caster (there was a set that positioned the ball-joint forward of all the rest).

If you plan on understeering into a curb, it's much better to have the steel arms fitted in this case because they will bend in most circumstances where the aluminum arms will not. Bending basically makes them a "sacrificial" part where if the aluminum arms were there, the impact would be potentially transfered to the body, and really cause some van-damage.

I have put an ALK on a few cars now, but this last one was the first one where it was just that and the STi arms, leaving the rest of the suspension stock. So I really got a great chance to see the difference. The biggest difference to me was steering feel; the car wants to yank the wheel back to center now, and you can feel every single thing the outside tire is doing in a turn. Feels much more precise. The other thing is turn-in, but, steering feel was much more noticable.

Next time I pick up my car, it will have TiC cowl braces, the Oswald rear brace, an STi Ti FSTB and subframe lock bolts - as well as the Konis. So it should be interesting to feel the difference. My car has been making pops and creaks going into driveways, and I am really hoping that stops!

I agree, though it's really just about impossible to get this point across without offending someone. I had the "opportunity" to drive my '02 sedan around on stock suspension for a lot longer than planned because of other unplanned things, and this really awarded me the ability to completely appreciate the delicate changes these parts made to my car. The Ralston to 101N on-ramp coming from Belmont is a lot of fun for testing this.

As strange as it might sound to some people, it would really be a neat experience to do around 5k miles in your car - including some track days - without changing anything. Then set it up so that you could really drive the car after every change. Pretty difficult in the real world though!


EDIT: I believe the STi bushings and rear mounts do come with the STi arms. The STi Group-N engine, trans and pitch-mount bushings should be tossed on the list with the cowl braces and ALK for "must-have bang-for-the-buck-yeah" type mod list. I think I have the STi and the stock 2002 rear mounts at the shop since my car has the Whiteline ALK on it now.

Someone mentioned the "caster adding mounts" which could loosely refer to the ALK/PSRS/ETC. There are a set of aluminum control arms that add caster by moving the ball-joint forward in relation to all other mounts. This same effect can be achieved on the regular aluminum arms by "flipping" the rear steel mount "pin" that bolts onto the back of the arm, and even further by adding washers here to further push the arm away from the mount/balljoint forward, but you should understand what you are doing before messing with this. The ALK effectively lowers the rearmost mount point of the control arm, which affects kingpin inclination, and improves static caster. In conjunction with the aluminum arms, you get much better control and precision in your steering.

A simple way to explain it, that may or may not be correct, is that the forces that were previously acting on your suspension as you go through corners, on and off the throttle, in an effort to work "dive" out of the suspension, are removed withe the addition of an ALK, so instead, you feel a much more correct/simplified version of the forces acting upon your suspension. It's as though the "anti-dive" geometry dulled some of the response you feel in your wheel. The ALK removes the dullness.

slugrx

iTrader: (12)

On my 04 wrx I got sti aluminum control arms before adding alk...I'm not sure if they are the caster ones as I got them online used and back in like 2009. They were off a jdm ver8 sti is all I can remember. I noticed a minor difference in turn in ability, but when I installed whiteline street alk it made a huge difference in all things mentioned previously by others, much bigger difference than with just the lca (only other mods at time were bc br coils and bigger rear sway bar - now on st coilovers)

One of the first things I did to my legacy was alk as well and it had the same drastic effect on turn in capabilities...the legacy has bilstein/subaru technica coilovers and bump steer/tie rod ends

I recommend everyone to get alk unless it prevents them from racing in a certain class

04GG

iTrader: (33)

Yep, I was told that by the shop when they installed them. Stiffer, but the penalty being you don't want to hit anything with them. Hate to say it, but that's the same thing with the fender braces - you've removed some of the give in the chassis and there will potentially be additional damage expected in a front end collision with stiffer ones installed because more force will be transmitted.

OneManArmy

iTrader: (7)

Someone move this thread and change the title. It's actually got a purpose now.


Can't believe I just said that about a Heedz thread. Gudlawd.

Heedz

iTrader: (51)

hahahahaha. Right? I'll ask sybir.

sybir

iTrader: (45)

I was just as shocked as Ray

04GG

iTrader: (33)

LOL, and thanks for having it moved guys.