All this suspension talk.. Planning out DD '02 WRX changes.
04-16-2013, 02:54 PM
#61
Registered User
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: East Bay / Pomona
Posts: 3,670
Car Info: '02 PSM WRX
Alk and the sti aluminum control arms made a world of difference with my setup (only have coils and rear sway/endlink)
My car is pretty neutral on off/onramps and its hard for me to get the rear to lift...I just need better tires and a proper alignment and I could push it even harder..my drivers front tire has taken a beating trying to grip around the woodside-101n onramp and the holly off ramp haha
My car is pretty neutral on off/onramps and its hard for me to get the rear to lift...I just need better tires and a proper alignment and I could push it even harder..my drivers front tire has taken a beating trying to grip around the woodside-101n onramp and the holly off ramp haha
04-16-2013, 03:25 PM
#63
If in doubt, FLAT OUT
iTrader: (33)
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Nor Cal SJ
Posts: 7,034
Car Info: 2010 Hatch, 2011 Sedan
They should be quite a bit lighter per, but it isn't unsprung weight so I don't know how much it really helps. I would still expect it to help with quicker suspension transitions because they are lighter.
04-16-2013, 03:50 PM
#64
Registered User
iTrader: (9)
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 3,311
Car Info: 2011 WRX hatch gray
Subaru, without changing anything on the suspension, could have "gotten rid of the gap" by designing the fenders for a tighter fit. Would that make everyone happy?
The issue is, to lower the GD chassis enough to reduce the gap enough (that's rice!), then you **** the suspension up. At minimum you should add a roll center adjustment kid to compensate (but the RCA kit only compensates for about 10mm of lowering). The problem is that the inner pivot point of the lower control arm is positioned so that the suspension travel keeps the arm at an angle so the outer point is always lower. This results in a better dynamic camber curve. When you lower it too much, the arm starts going horizontal, and in some cases actually pointing up. The dynamic camber goes positively in this range the more you compress and that's horrible for handling.
If you do any kind of rallyx/rally (I do!) then you'll learn to love clearance, including the gap. Look at the gap a WRC car:
Dampers: Koni Yellows
Coiled torsion bars: RCE Blacks for '04-'07 STi
Supporting gear: front '02 Group-N tophats, rear '04 Group-N Tophats, spacers required to adapt '02 strut housings to '04 Tophats for the RCE blacks
Extras: Whiteline ALK, and a huge sack of bright yellow bushings (rack, diff, all the useful ones), rear lock bolts.
Coiled torsion bars: RCE Blacks for '04-'07 STi
Supporting gear: front '02 Group-N tophats, rear '04 Group-N Tophats, spacers required to adapt '02 strut housings to '04 Tophats for the RCE blacks
Extras: Whiteline ALK, and a huge sack of bright yellow bushings (rack, diff, all the useful ones), rear lock bolts.
Which ALK did you choose? Comfort, sport, race?
Last edited by chimchimm5; 04-16-2013 at 04:07 PM.
04-16-2013, 06:07 PM
#66
chim. I follow that line of thinking myself but I think you're on the extreme side here...
1. that rally car doesn't have that much gap. It's leaned over sliding that corner. it's actually raised and lowered depending on the stage set up.
2. comparing a street driven wrx to a rally car or one set up for rally cross is silly. I drive on dirt road more than anyone on this forum short of pete. My car is lowered. I've never had a problem. But if I was doing rally crosses on the regular I'd probably set it up a bit different. I'd at least have a different set of wheels for the rx courses.
3. Just lowering your car doesn't destroy the angles. We're talking about significant changes. That slammed look and what not.
But lowering your car on something like the swift, rce or even pink wagon springs ins't going to do that. It's very minimal with the swift being the lowest. It just reduces the gap. It doesn't stuff the tires...
Reasonable lower... this is on swifts. I have met this dude. LOL!
Slammed axel angle killer... (I think this one is bagged but you get the picture) Kinda like that wagon I saw a couple years ago at BAM with like -5 degrees of camber in the back and positive int he front to fit wheels. WTF.
But in principle broham. I agree. I'm not in to slammed retarded subarus. You can't drive them the way they were intended to be driven. My car is barely lowered but you know what... it handles really well and I can still smash snow/mud/dirt/gravel at will. WUT!!!! So I think I'm actually just expanding on what you're saying. LOL!
1. that rally car doesn't have that much gap. It's leaned over sliding that corner. it's actually raised and lowered depending on the stage set up.
2. comparing a street driven wrx to a rally car or one set up for rally cross is silly. I drive on dirt road more than anyone on this forum short of pete. My car is lowered. I've never had a problem. But if I was doing rally crosses on the regular I'd probably set it up a bit different. I'd at least have a different set of wheels for the rx courses.
3. Just lowering your car doesn't destroy the angles. We're talking about significant changes. That slammed look and what not.
But lowering your car on something like the swift, rce or even pink wagon springs ins't going to do that. It's very minimal with the swift being the lowest. It just reduces the gap. It doesn't stuff the tires...
Reasonable lower... this is on swifts. I have met this dude. LOL!
Slammed axel angle killer... (I think this one is bagged but you get the picture) Kinda like that wagon I saw a couple years ago at BAM with like -5 degrees of camber in the back and positive int he front to fit wheels. WTF.
But in principle broham. I agree. I'm not in to slammed retarded subarus. You can't drive them the way they were intended to be driven. My car is barely lowered but you know what... it handles really well and I can still smash snow/mud/dirt/gravel at will. WUT!!!! So I think I'm actually just expanding on what you're saying. LOL!
04-17-2013, 08:41 AM
#67
If in doubt, FLAT OUT
iTrader: (33)
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Nor Cal SJ
Posts: 7,034
Car Info: 2010 Hatch, 2011 Sedan
Mann Engineering sells them and he said they are NOT more rugged, they are actually a lot easier to damage because they are cast aluminum - which makes perfect sense; even solid aluminum is not stronger than steel, even stamped steel in this case. Probably not a big deal for a street car in general, but if you hit something major, they are more likely to be damaged, at least that's what he said anyway. I asked him specifically about them because I was considering them for my wagon when I did the stage 1 suspension there.
04-17-2013, 08:14 PM
#68
Registered User
iTrader: (9)
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 3,311
Car Info: 2011 WRX hatch gray
chim. I follow that line of thinking myself but I think you're on the extreme side here...
....
But in principle broham. I agree. I'm not in to slammed retarded subarus. You can't drive them the way they were intended to be driven. My car is barely lowered but you know what... it handles really well and I can still smash snow/mud/dirt/gravel at will. WUT!!!! So I think I'm actually just expanding on what you're saying. LOL!
....
But in principle broham. I agree. I'm not in to slammed retarded subarus. You can't drive them the way they were intended to be driven. My car is barely lowered but you know what... it handles really well and I can still smash snow/mud/dirt/gravel at will. WUT!!!! So I think I'm actually just expanding on what you're saying. LOL!
Like I said in the previous post, the RCEs you're looking at are a good choice.... Not slamming.
And yes the WRC comparison was purposely silly... Doesn't that rally dirt eating gap look awesome? I think so!
04-18-2013, 11:33 AM
#69
VIP Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Stockholm
Posts: 7,441
Car Info: 2018 Golf R Variant
Hello everyone, thanks again for all the replies and conversation! I have been off work for a bit, and tried to stay away from computers and the internoodle as much as possible.
Thanks again for taking the time to go through all of this!
If I knew of a FSTB that fit with my Vishnu TMIC, I would probably just get it because, it can't really hurt. Definitely going with the fender braces and probably be sooner than all the other stuff as I need a LF fender.
I really like and use my trunk - but I never use the pass-through. If a RSTB made a difference, I would use one - but probably not the V-brace unfortunately.
For the bushings, I will most likely not be doing the work, so "long lasting" or those that do not require too much maintenance would be best.
I want to make sweet love to that subframe... UHHHNNFF. I would most likely keep my subframe as my car is a street car, and safety is still a huge concern. I mean keep a subframe - if I could get that one, that would work for me! Might have something fabbed up actually..
I had a ALK on my '01 RS coupe and it made a big difference, mostly in turn-in responsiveness. Though, I did have struts and springs done at the same time. I felt like even though the new struts and springs were a little stiffer and more controlled (P1+AGX), the car rode better. Turning responsiveness on twisty turns was amazing.
Actually, thinking about it - that RS coupe was one of my favorite driving cars. That and the R32. Those cars were both purposely set as close as made sense to European stock ride heights.
I am interested in having mine installed before anything else suspension-related to see what sort of difference it will make on a stock suspension. But, totally agreed. I will definitely have the ALK in my list of items!
Sweet, I would like to check out your car too. Will not be going with those coilovers though. I also want to see if it looks like that FSTB will clear my TMIC as that is the one I like the most.
Nice! For the rear lateral links - did you go with replacing both or just one? From you mentioning dialing out camber, it makes me think you went with replacing both. I had a new set, never used them darn it. They are nice, but only thing that struck me when installing them is that they are seriously heavy. The plus to that is that they are heavy-duty and I could not imagine them having an issue.
Awesome, this is what I had thought, but it seems like this is also what most agree on as well. I will upgrade to '04+ and call it done.
Just want to check out the setups. Seems like you two have the closest to what I wanted, and I want to just check it out and if possible, take a ride to see how it feels. Nothing crazy, a run around the neighborhood or say a loop on/off the freeway near the meet would tell me what I want to know. I want to see how the car "feels" with turn-in, bump steer and stuff along those lines. I am looking for a sportier, more controlled, but still "could be stock" sort of thing. Don't need anything crazy enough to compromise ride quality, control, and usefulness!
Just stiffer so not as much deflection. I am pretty sure they are not lighter. I weighed the 3 different sets I had and compared them all to the steel ones but sadly I do not remember the exact info. But, I did all of this because when I held them in my hand, they did not feel any lighter than the steel units.
Supposedly it's all about keeping the suspension geometry in check.
Whoa whoa whoa. Not sure what you think I want to do here, but - on my last few Imprezas, I accomplished this with minimal side effects that I was able to detect. The USDM WRXs like mine had an artificially higher front suspension than those in Japan or Europe. My '98 Impreza Turbo Wagon I had in the UK was lower (about 30mm) than my USDM '01 Impreza, yet it did not handle badly - in fact, it seemed to be a lot more controlled and nice to drive than my "higher" USDM car.
I disagree and do not believe that by eliminating the front gap on USDM WRXs in the manner in which I am talking about is rice, or "messes up" the suspension in any way. In my last '03 WRX, I had springs that lowered the front around 1" and that did it for me. Incidentally, I did exactly the same thing with my 2004 VW R32, had coilovers installed and the suspension set to the European ride height which was around 30mm lower than the springs used for the cars shipped to the US.
I am not looking for a "slammed" car or anything that could be rationally described as rice. I am looking to slightly lower my car around 1"/30mm or so, admittedly mostly for aesthetic reasons.
I had the Prodrive/Bilstein setup briefly on my '98 RS coupe and while it was nice, it was too low and it bothered me that it took the control arms out of their desired angles - front and rear. One of the most expensive mods I did on my last track car was to relocate the rear control arm body mounts so that the geometry would return closer to stock with the lowered ride height (around 2").
Anyway, I take this seriously.
For the ALK, I had "sport" before, probably "Comfort" on this one. The only difference is the bushings, right?
Yep!
Agreed. Basically, I want to improve my dampers while removing the "compromises" that were worked in for the American market. Remember that my '02 sedan has stock springs and struts! I have mud flaps and still intend to use them!
See, here I think we are getting lost in different points of view. I believe you would not want the aluminum arms for something like a rally car because they are stiffer, and would not be as compliant in something like a crash. You would want them on a road-race or track car because they keep the suspension geometry in check in extreme cornering loads - things that are not so important when mashing around in the dirt.
In short, if you hit a curb with a steel control arm, most likely the control arm and maybe a sway bar mount are going to die. If you hit the same curb with aluminum arms, the stiffness of the arm will carry the force into the subframe and maybe even tweak the body a little.
I am just going to go for an all-out confession and admit that I purchased my aluminum control arms because they are very pretty, and I like the idea of having aluminum control arms on my car versus steel. Any "significant improvements" that people detected on the street with a change like this is most likely noticing the results of the alignment that was needed after the swap more than anything else..........
Gotcha - understood. I am definitely NOT talking about slamming!!! In all truth we probably have the same views on this, after reading your posts!
Thanks again everyone!!
Yup, I can definitely take you for a ride at some point. If you can make it out to the Wednesday Night Meet tonight then I'll head over.
It looks like the strut extender question was already answered so you should be good to go on that one.
The Strut Tower Bars. Part of the reason for the ones I have is the front one is essentially an OEM Part (or at least OEM looking). If you pop my hood and look at the engine bay it looks stock and won't cause anyone to really dig too deeply. For the rear bar, while the X-Brace does add more strength and rigidity you also have to realize that it will eat up part of the useable trunk space. If you don't care about trunk space, then by all means. If you do care though, then just a standard rear tower bar is okay. I personally would have liked to have had it with the Whiteline Quick Release (like what is on the wagon bars) as that would help be able to make the almost utterly useless ski pass through a bit more useable, but I hardly ever put anything through there anyways so not much worry there.
While the tower bars do not make a noticeable difference at the begging of the suspension process they do still help. Some of the normal creaks that our cars make is alleviated with the use of the bars. They also help to prevent chassis flex at the top of the car (i.e. preventing flex of the front windshield and rear window). I do have rock chips in the front windshield, but they have not developed into cracks and that to me equates to either luck of the draw with how they chipped or more likely the window itself is not flexing allowing a crack to develop. That to me is worth it as the cost of replacement of the windshield would have cost at least as much as the strut tower bar. Is it a necessary mod, not in the beginning, but it does make a difference, just not nearly as noticeable as just about any other suspension mod on our cars.
For the Rear Mounts, I did consider the Whiteline HD Mounts, but in the end settled on the 04+ mounts as they are about 1/4 - 1/3 of the cost and I figured that I really didn't see many people breaking the 04+ mounts. They are fairly strong and do not flex like the flimsy Bugeye rear mounts do. If you go that route it could potentially save you money that you can use in other areas as well. If the mount really does break, it wouldn't be like you would have been out of much money from the get go. If it doesn't break you saved quite a bit of money so either way it seemed like the best option to me. Realize that I have a 24mm solid rear bar and have had 0 issues with those mounts. So unless you are considering an even larger rear bar or are going to be heavy track use then save the money from the HD Mounts and get the OEM 04+ mounts instead.
I believe I ended up getting my Swift's from TiC, but had them match the price to Speed Element as I was getting several of the components for my setup from them at the time I was ordering so they were willing to adjust prices as need be.
For Bushings lots of different ones available, some are easier to install, some are less maintenance. Pretty much select whatever works for you, but I definitely recommend upgrading them from the factory (mushy) rubber bushings.
The Whiteline Com C Tophats add a bit more Caster to your setup. It's helped in corners to retain your Camber by having the increased Caster.
With the above setup when I went in to do an Alignment at Auto Innovations I had them set my alignment to:
-1.8 Camber Front
0 Toe Front
-1.4 Camber Rear
0 Toe Rear
When I went back in to do the alignment the settings pretty much had not changed at all. It's not like I don't drive my car either as I probably put something close to 20K on my car a year.
I've pondered getting an ALK for a long time, but ultimately I don't think it is really necessary. If anything what I would do is get the STI Aluminum Control Arms (the Caster adding ones) first. Then I'd like to get the Oswald Performance Front Subframe (GD FRONT SUBFRAME). I understand that the H-Brace would be cheaper, but this essentially would bolt everything together as well as removing weight from the front subframe rather than adding additional weight using the factory Subframe as well as the H-Brace. I know that you can completely ditch the factory Subframe as well since the JDM cars don't run them at all, but to me I'd rather have the rigidity up front, but reduce the overall weight.
After that the only things left that I'd like to still do for the suspension would be the rear Lateral Links and Trailing Arms. I would probably get the MSI Trailing Arms and Lateral Links with the TiC Bushings installed. After that I really don't see much else I would need to do as that would essentially make my whole setup as complete as I would like it to be.
BTW - I think I missed putting the Whiteline Rear Diff Lock Bolts on the list above, I have those as well.
I do currently love my setup though and think it is a great daily driver while still being plenty capable. It is not a harsh setup at all.
Oh yeah, as for the 04+ mounts. Yes go with those then you don't have to worry about the spacers since you would be matching '04+ Springs to 04+ mounts to struts designed for 04+ cars so everything matches cleanly.
It looks like the strut extender question was already answered so you should be good to go on that one.
The Strut Tower Bars. Part of the reason for the ones I have is the front one is essentially an OEM Part (or at least OEM looking). If you pop my hood and look at the engine bay it looks stock and won't cause anyone to really dig too deeply. For the rear bar, while the X-Brace does add more strength and rigidity you also have to realize that it will eat up part of the useable trunk space. If you don't care about trunk space, then by all means. If you do care though, then just a standard rear tower bar is okay. I personally would have liked to have had it with the Whiteline Quick Release (like what is on the wagon bars) as that would help be able to make the almost utterly useless ski pass through a bit more useable, but I hardly ever put anything through there anyways so not much worry there.
While the tower bars do not make a noticeable difference at the begging of the suspension process they do still help. Some of the normal creaks that our cars make is alleviated with the use of the bars. They also help to prevent chassis flex at the top of the car (i.e. preventing flex of the front windshield and rear window). I do have rock chips in the front windshield, but they have not developed into cracks and that to me equates to either luck of the draw with how they chipped or more likely the window itself is not flexing allowing a crack to develop. That to me is worth it as the cost of replacement of the windshield would have cost at least as much as the strut tower bar. Is it a necessary mod, not in the beginning, but it does make a difference, just not nearly as noticeable as just about any other suspension mod on our cars.
For the Rear Mounts, I did consider the Whiteline HD Mounts, but in the end settled on the 04+ mounts as they are about 1/4 - 1/3 of the cost and I figured that I really didn't see many people breaking the 04+ mounts. They are fairly strong and do not flex like the flimsy Bugeye rear mounts do. If you go that route it could potentially save you money that you can use in other areas as well. If the mount really does break, it wouldn't be like you would have been out of much money from the get go. If it doesn't break you saved quite a bit of money so either way it seemed like the best option to me. Realize that I have a 24mm solid rear bar and have had 0 issues with those mounts. So unless you are considering an even larger rear bar or are going to be heavy track use then save the money from the HD Mounts and get the OEM 04+ mounts instead.
I believe I ended up getting my Swift's from TiC, but had them match the price to Speed Element as I was getting several of the components for my setup from them at the time I was ordering so they were willing to adjust prices as need be.
For Bushings lots of different ones available, some are easier to install, some are less maintenance. Pretty much select whatever works for you, but I definitely recommend upgrading them from the factory (mushy) rubber bushings.
The Whiteline Com C Tophats add a bit more Caster to your setup. It's helped in corners to retain your Camber by having the increased Caster.
With the above setup when I went in to do an Alignment at Auto Innovations I had them set my alignment to:
-1.8 Camber Front
0 Toe Front
-1.4 Camber Rear
0 Toe Rear
When I went back in to do the alignment the settings pretty much had not changed at all. It's not like I don't drive my car either as I probably put something close to 20K on my car a year.
I've pondered getting an ALK for a long time, but ultimately I don't think it is really necessary. If anything what I would do is get the STI Aluminum Control Arms (the Caster adding ones) first. Then I'd like to get the Oswald Performance Front Subframe (GD FRONT SUBFRAME). I understand that the H-Brace would be cheaper, but this essentially would bolt everything together as well as removing weight from the front subframe rather than adding additional weight using the factory Subframe as well as the H-Brace. I know that you can completely ditch the factory Subframe as well since the JDM cars don't run them at all, but to me I'd rather have the rigidity up front, but reduce the overall weight.
After that the only things left that I'd like to still do for the suspension would be the rear Lateral Links and Trailing Arms. I would probably get the MSI Trailing Arms and Lateral Links with the TiC Bushings installed. After that I really don't see much else I would need to do as that would essentially make my whole setup as complete as I would like it to be.
BTW - I think I missed putting the Whiteline Rear Diff Lock Bolts on the list above, I have those as well.
I do currently love my setup though and think it is a great daily driver while still being plenty capable. It is not a harsh setup at all.
Oh yeah, as for the 04+ mounts. Yes go with those then you don't have to worry about the spacers since you would be matching '04+ Springs to 04+ mounts to struts designed for 04+ cars so everything matches cleanly.
If I knew of a FSTB that fit with my Vishnu TMIC, I would probably just get it because, it can't really hurt. Definitely going with the fender braces and probably be sooner than all the other stuff as I need a LF fender.
I really like and use my trunk - but I never use the pass-through. If a RSTB made a difference, I would use one - but probably not the V-brace unfortunately.
For the bushings, I will most likely not be doing the work, so "long lasting" or those that do not require too much maintenance would be best.
I want to make sweet love to that subframe... UHHHNNFF. I would most likely keep my subframe as my car is a street car, and safety is still a huge concern. I mean keep a subframe - if I could get that one, that would work for me! Might have something fabbed up actually..
I had a ALK on my '01 RS coupe and it made a big difference, mostly in turn-in responsiveness. Though, I did have struts and springs done at the same time. I felt like even though the new struts and springs were a little stiffer and more controlled (P1+AGX), the car rode better. Turning responsiveness on twisty turns was amazing.
Actually, thinking about it - that RS coupe was one of my favorite driving cars. That and the R32. Those cars were both purposely set as close as made sense to European stock ride heights.
I can take you for a ride too.
Tein Circuit Master Type-RA Coilovers
Whiteline Race ALK
STi Titanium Strut Bar
Cusco Carbon Fiber Rear Strut Bar
Cusco 22mm Adjustable Rear Sway Bar
Helix Endlinks
Whiteline Steering Rack Bushings
Rear Subframe Lock
Whiteline Rear Diff Lock-out bolts
Whiteline Rear Camber bolts
Front Subframe Delete
Tein Circuit Master Type-RA Coilovers
Whiteline Race ALK
STi Titanium Strut Bar
Cusco Carbon Fiber Rear Strut Bar
Cusco 22mm Adjustable Rear Sway Bar
Helix Endlinks
Whiteline Steering Rack Bushings
Rear Subframe Lock
Whiteline Rear Diff Lock-out bolts
Whiteline Rear Camber bolts
Front Subframe Delete
It's down right now, but If you're in the Fremont / Hayward / Dublin triangle, just shoot a PM. It "should" be sans leaking tranny and slipping clutch sometime mid to late next week.
My car suspension is:
Koni w/D-rex extenders in the front / Group N front & rear (04+) / Swift Spec-R
TIC cowl braces
Whiteline adjustable rear lateral links (to dial out some of the rear negative camber so it can rotate)
Steering rack bushings
Trailing arm bushings (front and back)
rear diff & outrigger bushings
WL rear sway & HD mounts
comfort ALK
17x7.5 / 225/45/17 Z1
-1.2 front / -0.7 rear / 0 toe
and when it's done at Mert's it'll have a 4.444 final drive too. But a new clutch, so I still can't push the new EFR until the clutch is broken in. Still can get some good turns in and you can tell comfort level without WOT.
My car suspension is:
Koni w/D-rex extenders in the front / Group N front & rear (04+) / Swift Spec-R
TIC cowl braces
Whiteline adjustable rear lateral links (to dial out some of the rear negative camber so it can rotate)
Steering rack bushings
Trailing arm bushings (front and back)
rear diff & outrigger bushings
WL rear sway & HD mounts
comfort ALK
17x7.5 / 225/45/17 Z1
-1.2 front / -0.7 rear / 0 toe
and when it's done at Mert's it'll have a 4.444 final drive too. But a new clutch, so I still can't push the new EFR until the clutch is broken in. Still can get some good turns in and you can tell comfort level without WOT.
The tophats go with the springs. Pick your springs and that picks the tophats for you.
The selection of 02-03 springs is abysmal... Like prodrive / eibach (low rates) or s-tech (too low, ridin' on bump stops). That's why people go with 04+ rear tophats. Every spring mentioned in this thread requires the 04+ top hat in the rear. Stock STi springs for comfort RCE black or swift for higher rate (and they aren't that bad for comfort with Konis.)
The selection of 02-03 springs is abysmal... Like prodrive / eibach (low rates) or s-tech (too low, ridin' on bump stops). That's why people go with 04+ rear tophats. Every spring mentioned in this thread requires the 04+ top hat in the rear. Stock STi springs for comfort RCE black or swift for higher rate (and they aren't that bad for comfort with Konis.)
I've followed the suspension forums at various subaru forums for over 7 years now and this "ugly wheel gap" is common... but extremely puzzling to me. You know that "gap" is a very subjective term and reducing it is detrimental to your function right?
Subaru, without changing anything on the suspension, could have "gotten rid of the gap" by designing the fenders for a tighter fit. Would that make everyone happy?
The issue is, to lower the GD chassis enough to reduce the gap enough (that's rice!), then you **** the suspension up. At minimum you should add a roll center adjustment kid to compensate (but the RCA kit only compensates for about 10mm of lowering). The problem is that the inner pivot point of the lower control arm is positioned so that the suspension travel keeps the arm at an angle so the outer point is always lower. This results in a better dynamic camber curve. When you lower it too much, the arm starts going horizontal, and in some cases actually pointing up. The dynamic camber goes positively in this range the more you compress and that's horrible for handling.
If you do any kind of rallyx/rally (I do!) then you'll learn to love clearance, including the gap. Look at the gap a WRC car:
You choice of parts is great. Koni's are great, RCE blacks are great (probably on the stiffer range of acceptable DD... like JDM STI). You won't regret the groupN top hats.
Which ALK did you choose? Comfort, sport, race?
Subaru, without changing anything on the suspension, could have "gotten rid of the gap" by designing the fenders for a tighter fit. Would that make everyone happy?
The issue is, to lower the GD chassis enough to reduce the gap enough (that's rice!), then you **** the suspension up. At minimum you should add a roll center adjustment kid to compensate (but the RCA kit only compensates for about 10mm of lowering). The problem is that the inner pivot point of the lower control arm is positioned so that the suspension travel keeps the arm at an angle so the outer point is always lower. This results in a better dynamic camber curve. When you lower it too much, the arm starts going horizontal, and in some cases actually pointing up. The dynamic camber goes positively in this range the more you compress and that's horrible for handling.
If you do any kind of rallyx/rally (I do!) then you'll learn to love clearance, including the gap. Look at the gap a WRC car:
You choice of parts is great. Koni's are great, RCE blacks are great (probably on the stiffer range of acceptable DD... like JDM STI). You won't regret the groupN top hats.
Which ALK did you choose? Comfort, sport, race?
I disagree and do not believe that by eliminating the front gap on USDM WRXs in the manner in which I am talking about is rice, or "messes up" the suspension in any way. In my last '03 WRX, I had springs that lowered the front around 1" and that did it for me. Incidentally, I did exactly the same thing with my 2004 VW R32, had coilovers installed and the suspension set to the European ride height which was around 30mm lower than the springs used for the cars shipped to the US.
I am not looking for a "slammed" car or anything that could be rationally described as rice. I am looking to slightly lower my car around 1"/30mm or so, admittedly mostly for aesthetic reasons.
I had the Prodrive/Bilstein setup briefly on my '98 RS coupe and while it was nice, it was too low and it bothered me that it took the control arms out of their desired angles - front and rear. One of the most expensive mods I did on my last track car was to relocate the rear control arm body mounts so that the geometry would return closer to stock with the lowered ride height (around 2").
Anyway, I take this seriously.
For the ALK, I had "sport" before, probably "Comfort" on this one. The only difference is the bushings, right?
Mann Engineering sells them and he said they are NOT more rugged, they are actually a lot easier to damage because they are cast aluminum - which makes perfect sense; even solid aluminum is not stronger than steel, even stamped steel in this case. Probably not a big deal for a street car in general, but if you hit something major, they are more likely to be damaged, at least that's what he said anyway. I asked him specifically about them because I was considering them for my wagon when I did the stage 1 suspension there.
In short, if you hit a curb with a steel control arm, most likely the control arm and maybe a sway bar mount are going to die. If you hit the same curb with aluminum arms, the stiffness of the arm will carry the force into the subframe and maybe even tweak the body a little.
I am just going to go for an all-out confession and admit that I purchased my aluminum control arms because they are very pretty, and I like the idea of having aluminum control arms on my car versus steel. Any "significant improvements" that people detected on the street with a change like this is most likely noticing the results of the alignment that was needed after the swap more than anything else..........
Yeah I was equating "get rid of gap" with slamming. So you're right that's not you.
Like I said in the previous post, the RCEs you're looking at are a good choice.... Not slamming.
And yes the WRC comparison was purposely silly... Doesn't that rally dirt eating gap look awesome? I think so!
Like I said in the previous post, the RCEs you're looking at are a good choice.... Not slamming.
And yes the WRC comparison was purposely silly... Doesn't that rally dirt eating gap look awesome? I think so!
Thanks again everyone!!
04-18-2013, 11:42 AM
#70
VIP Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (7)
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Stockholm
Posts: 7,441
Car Info: 2018 Golf R Variant
Also wanted to mention that I will not be doing this right away. Just had another kid and my wife is off work for a bit still, so this is something I am hoping to get going later on this year. Had a few unplanned repairs that sapped the fun fund dry.
Anyway, here are some shots of my old '03 sedan:
This was on stock springs, but with Prodrive P1 17" wheels. The front was much higher than my friend's stock WRX in the UK. This is how my '02 looks and is just "too damn high" for me.
Here it is right before I sold it, on stock rims. I thought this ride height was "perfect" and it actually drove really nice. Could have benefitted greatly from an ALK, some bushings and bracing. This was Koni yellows and Eibachs.
This was my '01 RS coupe. It was sitting on Prodrive P1 springs, and I thought this height was also perfect:
Anyway, here are some shots of my old '03 sedan:
This was on stock springs, but with Prodrive P1 17" wheels. The front was much higher than my friend's stock WRX in the UK. This is how my '02 looks and is just "too damn high" for me.
Here it is right before I sold it, on stock rims. I thought this ride height was "perfect" and it actually drove really nice. Could have benefitted greatly from an ALK, some bushings and bracing. This was Koni yellows and Eibachs.
This was my '01 RS coupe. It was sitting on Prodrive P1 springs, and I thought this height was also perfect:
04-18-2013, 12:13 PM
#71
Yeah. If you go to low it can really effect your turn in.
When I had my spec C set up I felt like my car RIPPED on high speed benders and what not. But turn in on the tight stuff was rough because the rear was so much lower than the front. I had the spec C... so sag on a sedan. And I had MRT cast/camber plates that raised the front a little bit.
Suspension geometry is HUGE and usually not thought about. LOL.
When I had my spec C set up I felt like my car RIPPED on high speed benders and what not. But turn in on the tight stuff was rough because the rear was so much lower than the front. I had the spec C... so sag on a sedan. And I had MRT cast/camber plates that raised the front a little bit.
Suspension geometry is HUGE and usually not thought about. LOL.
04-18-2013, 12:18 PM
#72
Yeah. If you go to low it can really effect your turn in.
When I had my spec C set up I felt like my car RIPPED on high speed benders and what not. But turn in on the tight stuff was rough because the rear was so much lower than the front. I had the spec C... so sag on a sedan. And I had MRT cast/camber plates that raised the front a little bit.
Suspension geometry is HUGE and usually not thought about. LOL.
When I had my spec C set up I felt like my car RIPPED on high speed benders and what not. But turn in on the tight stuff was rough because the rear was so much lower than the front. I had the spec C... so sag on a sedan. And I had MRT cast/camber plates that raised the front a little bit.
Suspension geometry is HUGE and usually not thought about. LOL.
04-18-2013, 01:04 PM
#73
Yeah. If you go to low it can really effect your turn in.
When I had my spec C set up I felt like my car RIPPED on high speed benders and what not. But turn in on the tight stuff was rough because the rear was so much lower than the front. I had the spec C... so sag on a sedan. And I had MRT cast/camber plates that raised the front a little bit.
Suspension geometry is HUGE and usually not thought about. LOL.
When I had my spec C set up I felt like my car RIPPED on high speed benders and what not. But turn in on the tight stuff was rough because the rear was so much lower than the front. I had the spec C... so sag on a sedan. And I had MRT cast/camber plates that raised the front a little bit.
Suspension geometry is HUGE and usually not thought about. LOL.
agree that the rear was way lower on those
drove my buddies 06 wrx with ST coilovers, group-n tops, whiteline street alk, front and rear sway/endlinks and im going to buy the ST with group-n soon...i really like the way they felt, solid ride, good travel, not bouncy at all but still had the stiff coilover feeling that i like and they are height adjustable
got a quote from a nasioc vendor for $1325 shipped for ST coils with group-n tophats all around and they come with a 5year warranty
04-18-2013, 01:09 PM
#74
yeah when i had the spec C set up on 17 it was pretty awesome...was able to reach really high speeds with yokohama sdrives...5 or so mph faster speeds than with BC coils and star specs on the 40mph posted turns
agree that the rear was way lower on those
drove my buddies 06 wrx with ST coilovers, group-n tops, whiteline street alk, front and rear sway/endlinks and im going to buy the ST with group-n soon...i really like the way they felt, solid ride, good travel, not bouncy at all but still had the stiff coilover feeling that i like and they are height adjustable
got a quote from a nasioc vendor for $1325 shipped for ST coils with group-n tophats all around and they come with a 5year warranty
agree that the rear was way lower on those
drove my buddies 06 wrx with ST coilovers, group-n tops, whiteline street alk, front and rear sway/endlinks and im going to buy the ST with group-n soon...i really like the way they felt, solid ride, good travel, not bouncy at all but still had the stiff coilover feeling that i like and they are height adjustable
got a quote from a nasioc vendor for $1325 shipped for ST coils with group-n tophats all around and they come with a 5year warranty
Yeah that set up is probably my favorite handling set up I've had on my car so far. I should have just put saggy butt shims on and kept it. LOL!
But yeah... so fun on 17 and other drives like that.
I think if I do my suspension again I'm doing koni/swift unless I come up fat on some sick coils. LOL!
04-18-2013, 01:34 PM
#75
I would still go back to koni + swift if the bugeye didn't come with circuit masters lol.
It's definitely not the best for the two turns on 9 that are decently flat but are sharp relative to the other parts. It likes to hop out. But I do see how these would handle great on a track.
It's definitely not the best for the two turns on 9 that are decently flat but are sharp relative to the other parts. It likes to hop out. But I do see how these would handle great on a track.
