Beware of Following in Rome’s footsteps.

Rome – That bastion of democracy and shining light of freedom and culture! Rome, once ruler of the known Western world; Rome – the republic; Rome – the empire. But where is Rome now? Oh, the city is still there, in Italy. Remnants of the great culture are still there for us to see. But I am speaking of the political institution of Rome.

Some will argue that the new Rome is the United States. It is not a far stretch of the imagination to see why they make this analogy. For one thing, our system of government was envisioned and created by the Founding Fathers based on earlier models of government in Greece and Rome.

Few people will disagree the influence Rome had on the known world, and the parallels with our own government are quite apparent. Yet, one must also take into account Rome’s darker history and the parallels we share.

Rome started out as a republic. Though the actual origin of Rome is shrouded in myth, the republic began to flourish on the foundations of democracy (Perhaps, not as we know it entirely, as, for example, women weren’t regarded with the same equal status as men, and slavery was an accepted institution). And yet, is this not how the United States began?

Let us jump several hundred years into the future – Rome’s future, that is. The time is several years after the “Birth of Christ”. A time traveler from Rome’s past will no longer recognize his once humble republic. Rome is now fully consumed in a march to empire and world domination.

“They are either with us, or against us” is a common Roman theme. Seeing a threat or potential threat from its neighbors, Rome begins a series of conquests to pacify any country or people that dare threaten its existence. Of course the notion that any such people could threaten an empire as vast as Rome is bordering on the absurd; Nevertheless, this was the belief shared by the rulers at the time.

Perhaps a dialogue in the Roman senate would have gone something like this: “My fellow Romans, we are faced with a great threat to our very existence. As we speak, enemies of Rome are plotting against us; against our beautiful and free democracy. We can no longer remain silent and wait for them to destroy all that we stand for. I therefore authorize a pre-emptive action against our enemies. We will not falter, we will not fail – we will be victorious.”

Of course, the problem with pre-emption and military adventures is two-fold. Once engaged in a concept of preventative war, one must continue to pour all resources into this endeavor; it is a “crossing of the Rubicon” so to speak. And that leads us to the second situation, that being the finite nature of resources themselves.

A Roman legion stationed in the Iberian peninsula needs to be supported and fed, as does one stationed in the British Isles, along with several regions in the northern/central Europe. More money is needed, more taxes are levied – more money is coined. And all the while, the people who have been subjugated grow, learn and become more adept and skilled. These “Barbarians” learn of the strengths and weaknesses of the invading forces.

As those who studied history know, Rome, with all its glory and grandeur, and superior unstoppable military, eventually fell. The very same roads that Rome built were used by the so-called “Barbarians” to invade and destroy Rome.

There are many people who choose to ignore or give only superficial attention to history. As the cliché phrase we are all familiar with goes, however: “Those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it”.

Are we living in the new Rome? Are we not heeding the warnings and examples of history? Who are we labeling as Barbarians now? Is this truly a wise course of action that we are on?

All Empires will eventually fall; that is the nature of things. The question is, when and how? We would be wise to study Rome and learn from its lessons.

The differnce between the United States and Rome is that we are not an empire. We do not claim sovereignty over peoples who have not willingly subjected themselves to it. The "occupation" of Iraq is already on its way to ending. The Iraqi government better get some life preservers, because come next year, I would wager that it will be sink or swim. We'll be cutting the cords that hold up our supposed puppet state, and we'll see if it has legs of its own.

Anyways, all I keep learning from these threads is that Random Thoughts needs a new forum. Know that I am in favor of it and working towards it.

Oh no the dreaded USA empire of the world </sarcasm>

If it was such a problem thousands of people wouldn't move here.

The differnce between the United States and Rome is that we are not an empire.

Rome was a representitive democracy for about 200 years before it became an empire.

Right. 215 years and counting for us (from the ratification of the Constitution, which makes us a democratic republic, and not from the Declaration of Independence, which makes us a sovereign nation) and we're still not an empire. There are no unwilling participants in American democracy.

what about perto rico?

what about foregin embassies? what about...

;)

and i dont think the US is EXACTLY like hte roman empire but i do see evidence socialy of the same issues that lead to the down fall of the empire.

For instance our facination with sports and entertainment, no other culture in the world is like american culture in that regards, some of our most irch and famous people are entertainers. What does that say about our culture? How many nobel prize winners can the common man name? How many Former presidents and world leaders can the common american name? For gods sakes how many countries does hte common american know?

Now ask your self this, how many common americans know that britney is getting married? or that jlo is a tramp with 0912091 ex husbands? How many americans know more about jlo and afflecks relationship then they did?

Get my point?

what about perto rico?

what about foregin embassies? what about...

;)

and i dont think the US is EXACTLY like hte roman empire but i do see evidence socialy of the same issues that lead to the down fall of the empire.

For instance our facination with sports and entertainment, no other culture in the world is like american culture in that regards, some of our most irch and famous people are entertainers. What does that say about our culture? How many nobel prize winners can the common man name? How many Former presidents and world leaders can the common american name? For gods sakes how many countries does hte common american know?

Now ask your self this, how many common americans know that britney is getting married? or that jlo is a tramp with 0912091 ex husbands? How many americans know more about jlo and afflecks relationship then they did?

Get my point?

Seems we have more TV here than any other place in the world too

solution get rid of all tv's americans forced to read the paper for now on

Seems we have more TV here than any other place in the world too

solution get rid of all tv's americans forced to read the paper for now on


funny you say that i happen to be wearing this shirt as we speak

http://www.unamerican.com/images/shirts/setmefree.gif

what about perto rico?

what about foregin embassies? what about...

What about Puerto Rico? Why don't we hold yet another special vote to see if they're tired of being a US protectorate? Don't forget Guam and the others.

For instance our facination with sports and entertainment, no other culture in the world is like american culture in that regards, some of our most irch and famous people are entertainers. What does that say about our culture?

Odd thing for a soccer fan to say...

Now ask your self this, how many common americans know that britney is getting married? or that jlo is a tramp with 0912091 ex husbands? How many americans know more about jlo and afflecks relationship then they did?

Get my point?

Yes, if the point is that American's lives are so comfortable and devoid of actual hazards that they have nothing better to do than bull**** about people who are well-known for being well-known. But I don't see what that proves about fascism and imperialism.

hey i cant help it its geneticly encoded into me to have to watch and support the brasilian seleciao!
(our national team)


ever read a brave new world?

funny you say that i happen to be wearing this shirt as we speak

http://www.unamerican.com/images/shirts/setmefree.gif

Why is your heroin syringe in your microwave? :confused:

i like it at body temp.. haha

hey i cant help it its geneticly encoded into me to have to watch and support the brasilian seleciao!
(our national team)

Brazil! Those are the ugliest, most socially constipated, and racist people on earth! Everybody knows that!


ever read a brave new world?

No. Can I borrow your copy?

um if you want to sure thing. i think i have two the orginal and the expanded edition.

they might be in davis still i will have to pick them up on thursday.

um if you want to sure thing. i think i have two the orginal and the expanded edition.

they might be in davis still i will have to pick them up on thursday.

Good. Now bring it out to a meet, Mr I-can-make-fun-of-you-all-because-you-never-see-me-in-person. :p

All Empires will eventually fall; that is the nature of things.

I read a really interesting argument once that the Roman Empire never dissappeared, but rather merely changed it's name and image.

The idea was that the formal power "the emperor", merely changed it's official title to "the pope" when the empire embraced christianity. (The emperor's claim to power having already been a religous one for centuries)

Meanwhile, the informal power -the network of powerfull families that traded the emperium/papacy back and forth- became what it still is today: the mafia.

Between the two, "Rome" still weilds considerable global power.

Just something to chew on,
Mike

I read a really interesting argument once that the Roman Empire never dissappeared, but rather merely changed it's name and image.

The idea was that the formal power "the emperor", merely changed it's official title to "the pope" when the empire embraced christianity. (The emperor's claim to power having already been a religous one for centuries)

Meanwhile, the informal power -the network of powerfull families that traded the emperium/papacy back and forth- became what it still is today: the mafia.

Between the two, "Rome" still weilds considerable global power.

Just something to chew on,
Mike

**sits back and waits for Dr3d1zzl3 and FUNKED1 to show up for this one**

There are no unwilling participants in American democracy.


Umm...

The Souix, the Apache, the Iriquois, the Modoc, the Shoshone... ect.

(Arguably, the early Mormons, too)
Mike

See my post that needs bumping titled "Omg" plz kk thx.
Just remember:
http://invertedhorizons.dyndns.org/files/misc23.jpg

Good. Now bring it out to a meet, Mr I-can-make-fun-of-you-all-because-you-never-see-me-in-person. :p


dude i said stop eroding away all my tactics, if you keep this up i will have to drop the E off of my ETHUG

Umm...

The Souix, the Apache, the Iriquois, the Modoc, the Shoshone... ect.

(Arguably, the early Mormons, too)
Mike

The Indian Wars of the 19th century were wars of conquest ending in near-total extermination of many nations, but that has little to do with current world events. Actually, the closest argument you could make is Texas.... but still no.

I read a really interesting argument once that the Roman Empire never dissappeared, but rather merely changed it's name and image.

The idea was that the formal power "the emperor", merely changed it's official title to "the pope" when the empire embraced christianity. (The emperor's claim to power having already been a religous one for centuries)

Meanwhile, the informal power -the network of powerfull families that traded the emperium/papacy back and forth- became what it still is today: the mafia.

Between the two, "Rome" still weilds considerable global power.

Just something to chew on,
Mike


Three roman kids from the past agree!!!
http://www.sfgate.com/chronicle/pictures/2003/07/12/mn_circles.jpg

http://www.humanplague.com/archive/pissoff/pics/idhitit2.jpg

The Indian Wars of the 19th century were wars of conquest ending in near-total extermination of many nations, but that has little to do with current world events.

It's important to remember, though, that MANY americans of the time considered that we were doing all that for the indian's benifit; to "bring them to civilization". (The fact that they didn't want to play "civilization" by our rules was lost on most.)



Actually, the closest argument you could make is Texas.... but still no.

Hadn't even thought about Texas. If we'd been smarter, we might have let them go.

How about the Mormon state called "Desert". We sent in the cavalry and killed a bunch of people (white people, at that) because they wanted to set up their own country in the as-yet unclaimed west.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just enjoying the discussion...

(PS: I don't really think the the mafia is the legitimate inheritor of Rome's history, but there ARE some families that reappear in the histories of both. " The Borgias" for instance...
Mike

Regarding bringing the native americans into "civilization" we do exactly the same thing in political terms. We go wherever there is no Democracy in a place without military strength to stop us, and offer our brand of self-government to all who live there. Funny thing is, that choice is no choice at all- what average person, educated or not, would not choose the freedoms offered by democracy? The only opposition to it is the small fraction of whatever country (like Iraq) that stands to lose political power through the gaining of it by the general public. I guess the difference is we were wrong then and we are right now.

I guess the difference is we were wrong then and we are right now.

I guess what I'm saying is that we have always believed this, at any given point in amerian history. I certainly do hope that we're correct this time...

Only time can tell.

I guess what I'm saying is that we have always believed this, at any given point in amerian history. I certainly do hope that we're correct this time...

Only time can tell.

People choose freedom and power over being ruled pretty much every time. That's how we know we are right. It's one thing to cite immigration as an indicator; I prefer to cite defectors as a better one.

It's important to remember, though, that MANY americans of the time considered that we were doing all that for the indian's benifit; to "bring them to civilization". (The fact that they didn't want to play "civilization" by our rules was lost on most.)





Hadn't even thought about Texas. If we'd been smarter, we might have let them go.

How about the Mormon state called "Desert". We sent in the cavalry and killed a bunch of people (white people, at that) because they wanted to set up their own country in the as-yet unclaimed west.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just enjoying the discussion...

(PS: I don't really think the the mafia is the legitimate inheritor of Rome's history, but there ARE some families that reappear in the histories of both. " The Borgias" for instance...
Mike


if anytning that is an example of how families gravitate towards power, be a gentic disposition or a desire to follow in family footsteps.

if anytning that is an example of how families gravitate towards power, be a gentic disposition or a desire to follow in family footsteps.

Good point.

Maybe that has something to do with what turns a republic into an empire: As the republic ages, a class of power-families emerges, who's goals (good or ill) are not always served by what is best for the voting masses.

Seems like a familliar situation...
(and this thread is nearly back on topic!)

M

Good point.

Maybe that has something to do with what turns a republic into an empire: As the republic ages, a class of power-families emerges, who's goals (good or ill) are not always served by what is best for the voting masses.

Seems like a familliar situation...
(and this thread is nearly back on topic!)

M

Did you know that Dubya is a distant cousin of the Queen of England? It's true.

Did you know that Dubya is a distant cousin of the Queen of England? It's true.

Question is: can they BOTH trace back to the Caesers?
Like I said, maybe Rome never really went anywhere.
M

Question is: can they BOTH trace back to the Caesers?
Like I said, maybe Rome never really went anywhere.
M

Anybody who can prove that gets a gold star for the day. :p

How many nobel prize winners can the common man name? How many Former presidents and world leaders can the common american name? For gods sakes how many countries does hte common american know?

Now ask your self this, how many common americans know that britney is getting married? or that jlo is a tramp with 0912091 ex husbands? How many americans know more about jlo and afflecks relationship then they did?

Get my point?

Peter Agre Nobel Prize in Chemistry last year
Kurt Wuthrich in Chemistry in 2002
Arvid Carlsson, Paul Greengard, and Eric Kandel got the prize for some of their findings in signal transduction in the nervous system (very interesting)

Presidents: the first four
George Washington
John Adams
Thomas Jefferson
James Madison

Countries: I will name the ones currently found around Iraq since they are of importance at this time
Iran
Turkey
Syria
Jordan
Kuwait
Saudi Arabia

I actually didn't know that Britney Spears was or is married nor do I know anything about Jennifer Lopez. Those people don't interest me. I'd prefer to pay attention to the people that are actually making a difference... ie. have some intelligence.

confusation!

The differnce between the United States and Rome is that we are not an empire. We do not claim sovereignty over peoples who have not willingly subjected themselves to it. The "occupation" of Iraq is already on its way to ending. The Iraqi government better get some life preservers, because come next year, I would wager that it will be sink or swim. We'll be cutting the cords that hold up our supposed puppet state, and we'll see if it has legs of its own.




really? last I checked we like to keep our troups around ad nauseum

really? last I checked we like to keep our troups around ad nauseum

And precisely where do we do that against the wishes of a sovereign government?

ah yes, the governments installed by us (but of course for the betterment of the given country)

bump ;)

Peter Agre Nobel Prize in Chemistry last year
Kurt Wuthrich in Chemistry in 2002
Arvid Carlsson, Paul Greengard, and Eric Kandel got the prize for some of their findings in signal transduction in the nervous system (very interesting)

Presidents: the first four
George Washington
John Adams
Thomas Jefferson
James Madison

Countries: I will name the ones currently found around Iraq since they are of importance at this time
Iran
Turkey
Syria
Jordan
Kuwait
Saudi Arabia

I actually didn't know that Britney Spears was or is married nor do I know anything about Jennifer Lopez. Those people don't interest me. I'd prefer to pay attention to the people that are actually making a difference... ie. have some intelligence.

You sir are the exception to the rule.....

ah yes, the governments installed by us (but of course for the betterment of the given country)

Or more than likely for our own betterment.....LOL