The following thread started in the Hawaii regional forum about ECUTEK. Would be interested to hear from others outside of Hawaii. Please post replies here.

Tim

http://www.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3227

1. You don't need a dyno to tune the ECUTEK. Street tune it first , get it close THEN if you want to get the map even more nailed...dyno it. The whole point being...you really don't need the Dyno. Using the deltadash you (a good tuner) can get a very good map with the ECUTEK .
2. Alot of other devices, unichip and utec included get more power out of raising the stock boost (along with fuel and timing). With the ECUTEK you can get more power by keeping /using stock boost (along with fuel and timing).

Imagine you had a radio set to volume five. you wanted it to be louder. Unichip/utec are like adding inexpensive amplifiers to your stereo system to increase the sound. The sound increases but the quality doesn't. Just using the ECUTEK is like turning up the volume to 10 on your stereo system to get better/louder sound...that's it. All stock and clean power.

Originally posted on the Hawaii forum by mistake:

I had the reflash for about three weeks now and its is very smooth power. I also had it dynotuned and got 212whp -uppipe, downpipe, catback and samco hoses. Everything else stock.

As the ECU learns more, it gets more aggressive. I will probably get it dyno'ed again but it definitely feels more that 212 now. The first few days after the reflash, my boost gauge read 1.0bar WOT. Now I am getting 1.1 and touching 1.2 WOT in 2nd and 3rd gear. No det and running the cr@ppy CA, 91 octane gas.

No driveability problems at all except for a minor fuel cut at very high speeds. Shiv has stated that he can fix that for free.

BTW, the diff in whp between reflash pre dyno tune and after dyno tune was 6whp.

I wasnt aware you could use the Delta Dash with the ECUTEK (VISHNUS Version)

If thats how it works, Whats the cost of the DELTA DASH for "home users"...<G>

(I read you could Upload/Download Stock/Reflash maps?)

This would be great as I wouldnt have to buy another ECU if I had to go to emmisions testing in the future.

Hmmmm.
Shotgun

I thought the Delta Dash was only like and OBDII scanner and you can only tune with the DeltaECU. Am I misiing something here?

The Delta Dash is a datalogger, which plugs into the OBDII plug. It is a seperate unit from the ECUTek and cannot reprogram your ecu.

In any case I think the ECuTek is great. So far we have made MAPS for a variety of different setups and working on bigger and better now.

So is it true what ShotgunTC88 said about the donloading and uploading maps?

no
delta dash is a data logger for home use
ecutek is a ecu reflasher not avaiable for home use

both made by the same company

Thanks for the clarification. As i read my old post it looks like I say the ecutek and deltadash are one in the same.
"You do not need a dyno because you can use the delta dash to monitor/improve your ECUTEK(provided you have the software like we do) map."does that sound better?

Chris,

What I gather you are saying is that DeltaDash for "home" use is a Data GATHERING program that you cannot alter?

HarleyDavidson has a simular product called the "RaceTuner" that has the capabilties of MODIFIYING your Flashes on Harley ECU (home users<G>)

IF ECUTEK were to provide this software to the SUBARU folks for home use,

We too could do the same as H-D owners!!!

Never happen,........all those $275 "Re-flashes" would dissapear.

.02 Shotgun

Yes, We use the delta dash to monitor/log the current status of the car and its parts.
We then take that info and "play" around with our ECUtek (or anyone elses') map.

Some Ecutek maps are refined using Dynos. This is a great way to tune. You can log a lot of data...much like the delta dash. However, be carfeul how you actually TUNE your car. Dyno tuning doesn't always equal real world driving conditions. A Dyno Map may spit out a nice phat number but actually it may drive like crap on the streets.

The best case as far as ECU mapping goes would be to develop maps through properly-conducted dyno tuning (followed by road testing). The ECUTEK software integrates Delta Dash features to aid in such dyno tuning by logging and storing min/max knock corrections in each and every load/rpm breakpoint. Using either a dyno or delta dash by themselves leaves a bit to be desired as far as performance/safe margin management goes.

Cheers,
shiv
www.vishnutuning.com

By the way VISH,

Im NOT knocking the initial reflash,

Just the flashes if we have to change up/down because of boltons or boltoffs (emmissions)

(pain in the ass for yearly tests in some states.:( )

You da man!!!

Be seein ya soon!!!
Shotgun

I still say that 275 per reflash is complete and utter bull****. And with as much respect as I have for our awesome tuners in the Bay Area Subaru community, I have to wonder if the ECUtec would garner as much support if every home owner were able to do the tuning themselves, hence killing the reflash fee.

I'll be so stoked when some group of ragtag cut throats comes along and starts charging 25 bucks per reflash. There's an idea eh?

-Alan

Oh yeah, that's as close to an official challenge to explain WHY reflashes cost 275 as you'll hear from me... this week.

I understand reflashing can seem somewhat costly.
Perhaps you added a turbo, injectors and fuel pump since your last reflash? Well, that tune is no easy solution. It would require more time on the street AND dyno to nail a solid map. The tuners TIME and the DYNO fee are going to have to be paid...right?
All in All, reflashe fees should be determind on how much more tuning (street and DYNO) time is required.

Yeah Chris... That would seem appropriate, but I believe most of what I've been seeing (albeit NOT from I Speed) is listing flat rates.

If the cost is actually relative to the time you spend with each car on a dyno and the tuners time then we're talking about a fair trade. Money for service.

If we're talking about an off the shelf map being plugged into each car with no dyno time then I call it a rip off.

Thanks for clarifying... If you can clear this up for me, at least in terms of how I Speed handles things I'd appreciate it.

-Alan

Originally posted by ShotgunTC88
By the way VISH,

Im NOT knocking the initial reflash,

Just the flashes if we have to change up/down because of boltons or boltoffs (emmissions)

(pain in the ass for yearly tests in some states.:( )

You da man!!!

Be seein ya soon!!!
Shotgun

Hi Shotgun,

Our charge for successive re-mapping is $175, not $275. We charge this amount to offset the time and effort we put into our map calibration process in addition to the time it takes to actual conduct the flashing process. Not to mention my impending lung and brain transplant from inhaling exhaust fumes all day on the dyno. Making effective and safe maps isn't a trivial affair. Fortunately, we do a lot of in-house ECU re-mapping so per-unit costs are reduced substantially. Also, as with every tuner offering, we assume a degree of risk when offering our services or parts to the public. Not charging fairly for a service or component would be question business practice.

Cheers,
Shiv

Alan,

Perhaps it may seem a "rip-off". But look at it this way:

We only charge $75 an hour to tune and the dyno usually runs about $100 an hour.

Keeping that in mind, I must admit that the $175 fee Shiv charges is certainly fair and reasonable.

Maps just don't appear out of thin air. It does require some work;)

Originally posted by Vishnu
Hi Shotgun,

Our charge for successive re-mapping is $175, not $275. We charge this amount to offset the time and effort we put into our map calibration process in addition to the time it takes to actual conduct the flashing process. Not to mention my impending lung and brain transplant from inhaling exhaust fumes all day on the dyno. Making effective and safe maps isn't a trivial affair. Fortunately, we do a lot of in-house ECU re-mapping so per-unit costs are reduced substantially. Also, as with every tuner offering, we assume a degree of risk when offering our services or parts to the public. Not charging fairly for a service or component would be question business practice.

Cheers,
Shiv

I agree with Shiv about the environmental hazard. I WOULD NOT want to be in his shoes breathing the fumes and listening to the noise when the dynotuning is occuring. During my dynotuning, I had to leave a couple of times because the fumes and the deafening noise (that's when he pointed out the ear protection hanging right in front of my face, Shiv doesn't use one). And all this was with cool weather. Summer must suck.

Shiv,

Im just "whinnin" cause my state and EPA are the REAL ones to blame for the $$$!!

Gee, Why dont U.P.S have to reflash 747s.......<GGG>

Sorry.
Shotgun

Sorry Chris... I wasn't clear in my last post.

I didn't realize that getting a reflash included actual dyno time for each car.

So if everytime that I get a reflash I actually get my car onto a dyno with some tuning done (even if it's just some tweaks done to a base map that you in your experience have established as a decent map for my mods) then it is NOT a rip off.

Sorry if I was being unclear and thanks for taking the time to respond.

-Alan

Shiv,
I can relate to Shotgun's concern about the emission tests. If you haven't planned to do this already, I have an idea that may both benefit your loyal customers and your business.
If you can keep available a handful of stock WRX ECU's for 'rental' purposes. These can be 'rented' out for say $40-$50 for 2 weeks (plus shipping and core deposit) for your 're-flashed' customers (and may be a bit more $$$ for others not tuned or reflashed by you).
This should help with the emission issues for us once per year or 2 year. It wouldn't require any more reflashing effort or $$$. It will definitely be more affordable to us and could also be a source of easy income for your company.
If you like this idea, I wouldn't be opposed to a small discount when I am ready to order your reflashed ECU.
Regards,
Henry

Originally posted by arborwoodie
Shiv,
I can relate to Shotgun's concern about the emission tests. If you haven't planned to do this already, I have an idea that may both benefit your loyal customers and your business.
If you can keep available a handful of stock WRX ECU's for 'rental' purposes. These can be 'rented' out for say $40-$50 for 2 weeks (plus shipping and core deposit) for your 're-flashed' customers (and may be a bit more $$$ for others not tuned or reflashed by you).
This should help with the emission issues for us once per year or 2 year. It wouldn't require any more reflashing effort or $$$. It will definitely be more affordable to us and could also be a source of easy income for your company.
If you like this idea, I wouldn't be opposed to a small discount when I am ready to order your reflashed ECU.
Regards,
Henry


Why bother when we have the i-club and good friends? ask one of your subaru buddies to borrow his ECU for a couple hours do your test and return back to your own ECU.

Originally posted by arborwoodie
<snip..>
If you can keep available a handful of stock WRX ECU's for 'rental' purposes. These can be 'rented' out for say $40-$50 for 2 weeks (plus shipping and core deposit) for your 're-flashed' customers (and may be a bit more $$$ for others not tuned or reflashed by you).
This should help with the emission issues for us once per year or 2 year.
<snip..>I don't think this would work the way we'd like, Henry. I think there could be a lot of trouble from the CARB and BAR if a shop were to blatantly circumvent state law regarding emissions testing. A second problem would occur at the test station when they compare the VIN of the vehicle to the registration - I think they check this to make sure the vehicle they're testing hasn't had a license plate swapped.

I think we're better off taking care of the problem ourselves. These mods are sold with the understanding that it is for 'off-road use', only. My WRX is never driven on public roads. :)

The XEDE control system looks like the hot ticket for keeping different engine maps handy.

--
^ww^
"...axles of evil..." - George W. Bush

Originally posted by teiva-boy
Why bother when we have the i-club and good friends? ask one of your subaru buddies to borrow his ECU for a couple hours do your test and return back to your own ECU.
lets just say you've had your ecu flashed and have experienced no probs i.e. mil/cel or if you did encure some over the years, or cleared OBDII codes with scan tool/reader and have enough complete diagnostic cycles (40-80) isn't it safe to say your emission test would pass?

cant delete 2nd post

got rid of that pesky 2nd post. :)

Originally posted by Wingless Wonder
I don't think this would work the way we'd like, Henry. I think there could be a lot of trouble from the CARB and BAR if a shop were to blatantly circumvent state law regarding emissions testing. A second problem would occur at the test station when they compare the VIN of the vehicle to the registration - I think they check this to make sure the vehicle they're testing hasn't had a license plate swapped.
[

Re the second problem you identified: What did you mean about comparing the VIN to the registration. Not that I condone it, but I think the poster meant, hypothetically, if one was about to get his car smogged, he could swap ecu's with someone with a stock ecu, pass and get smog certificate, then swap back. Wouldn't that work, or does each ECU have the car's VIN programmed into it?

On a different note, how stealth is the ECUTEK?

Other than the butt-dyno difference, would a service tech be able to detect whether an ECU has been reflashed? If so, how much trouble would that tech have to go through to figure it out? Would he be able to tell by accident, for example, just by checking for CELs, or is it something you specifically have to look for?

Finally, would an otherwise stock WRX with an ECUTEK'd ecu pass a CA smog test?

Thanks in advance for your help. This discussion already has been immensely helpful.

The Cali DMV only tests idle, 3000 RPM's and the OBD-II for codes and to make sure everything looks good. There is no way they can tell if the ECU has been flashed.

The DMV pushes to many cars through a day to check for small little things that could be inaccurate, like horsepower differences.

So as long as it is not dyno'ed there really is no way to tell whether the ECU has been flashed or not.

In theory the ECUTek should pass emissions as the ECUTek is tuned to an A/F ratio not a set value like in the WRXLink or other like units. I am pretty definite that with the ECUTek flash you will pass emissions.

Dear Shiv, I am an ardent supporter of the advances that have been made in the WRX ECU reflash/ Exede arena. From everything I can get my hands on re: empirical research, Vishnu , seems to be leading the way. No mean task for a small company! I will be driving up to P-town for a Stage 1 dyno reflash this Spring.
All tuning not withstanding, my real concern is with the constant barrage of environmental toxins you are sujected to on a daily basis! On several occasions you have alluded to "constant fumes, extremely high Db levels, and mentined future organ transplants". Also disconcerting was an anecdotal reference from a customer that You " didn't use ear protection, even though it was hanging in front of You".
None of Your business, I can hear i-club members saying. True enough! But, for what it's worth, for the last 28 years, I've worked full-time as a Registered Respiratory Therapist, dealing primarily with Occupational Lung Diseases. Personally, I would hate to see someone with your aptitude, and automotive aumen, debilitated with a crippling Lung Disease.
This message would probably be better suited in the form of a PM to Shiv, but there are probably many people who, I hope, can benefit from this.
Sincerely Collins
Professional courtesy: All questions: e-mail: grace.21@cox. net

skywalker,

Do all the ECUTEK programmers have the exact stock maps so if I wanted to sell my WRX to a blue haired old lady in a few years I could have the ecu reset to exactly the way it was pre-ECUTEK?

Also, in your mapping experience, what differences have you found between: (a) a stock WRX with ECUTEK and (b) a WRX with a catless upipe only and an ECUTEK?

Thanks again for your helpful information.

Dave