Very interested in Vishnu ECU reflash! Talked to them on 12/27 and was told all mods OK, except after-market intakes [cold or otherwise]. Offered to drive to P-Town and be dynoed. Told: "All intakes do more harm than good, no intakes period'. I have one mod,{beside Greddy exhaust}, and, as luck would have it, it's an AEM cool air intake. Very happy with it! Cool,dense air, laminar flow, 7HP vs. stock thru powerband; what's not to like? Why the caveat on intakes? Intuition screams; "Lack of empirical data with assorted after-market intakes vs. other mods{up-pipes, down-pipes, exhausts.etc.} Is this the case, or are there real, valid detractions re: intakes? Shiv. would welcome your input. any anyone else's? Respect Vishnu, and really hope this is'nt bourne out of economic expedience. Respectively submitted, Collins

Not trying to be a punk or anything but didnt they already answer your question in this thread?
http://www.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4202

scoobiesnacks, I did get one opinion two days ago on a prior thread I posted. As to answering the question, no, it really didn't. Would really like to get a cogent explanation from Vishnu, if possible. Thanks, Collins

If intakes are so harmful, then explain why the top tuner WRXs in Japan and Australia are all using pod intakes? I agree that cold air intake is a waste, but a good pod filter like a Blitz SUS or a MRT Ram Pod is not a waste of money, and can provide some gains.

If you want an opinion from the man himself, call him or email him.

Some people think Intakes look great.
Others like the noise they make -- A stock WRX grunts more and you can hear the stock BOV.

With Turbos, intakes aren't as critical for resonance charging (like non-forced induction). I have an AEM Cold air on '02 WRX and am thinking about re-installing the stock air box.

Tweaking my UTEC will out-do any power the intake can make

Wait till the switch to MAP :D Get any darn intake you want and make mad b00000st yo!

Originally posted by Collins
Very interested in Vishnu ECU reflash! Talked to them on 12/27 and was told all mods OK, except after-market intakes [cold or otherwise]. Offered to drive to P-Town and be dynoed. Told: "All intakes do more harm than good, no intakes period'. I have one mod,{beside Greddy exhaust}, and, as luck would have it, it's an AEM cool air intake. Very happy with it! Cool,dense air, laminar flow, 7HP vs. stock thru powerband; what's not to like? Why the caveat on intakes? Intuition screams; "Lack of empirical data with assorted after-market intakes vs. other mods{up-pipes, down-pipes, exhausts.etc.} Is this the case, or are there real, valid detractions re: intakes? Shiv. would welcome your input. any anyone else's? Respect Vishnu, and really hope this is'nt bourne out of economic expedience. Respectively submitted, Collins


I am going to guess that the reason Shiv is stating no intakes is because the MAF sensor housing on the intakes is not exactly the same size as the stock housing. This skews the MAF readings across the board. He also understands that an intake is not needed and will not give you any power over a stock airbox. In short, Shiv can gaurentee a better running car that is consistant while making more power with the stock box in place.

The reason intakes make power on the WRX in certain cases is because the MAF housing is larger and this tells the ECU you are flowing less air. As a result the ECU injects a bit less fuel and your AF's lean out. Since the WRX's stock ECU is very rich in the 10 to 1 or even 9 to 1 range at WOT even a small change toward the leaning out the AF makes power.

As "thebob" pointed out below. That power you gained can be had with the stock intake if you had some form of engine management to tune the car. This is what Shiv is doing with the Chip (among many other things) but alot of the power comes from a leaner optimized AF curve.

I know you like your intake and thats cool man.. Run it. But the facts are that I have run in the 11's with a stock airbox and I have run low 12's with no nitrous making 400+hp all on a stock airbox. I have run the AEM intake and made no more power and my times did not drop. I am currently listed as #2 on the 1/4 mile registry and #3 on the 1/4 mile registry for nitrous and turbo.

After hearing Nathan at Turboxs say "most of the high hp cars we tune happen to have a stock airbox" only confirms that.

Back when I ran the AEM Shiv flew out and tuned my car and told me point blank to remove it back then and that was over a year ago.

hope this explains things.

Clark

Thank you very much for this info. It all makes sense, even with my limited tuner knowledge. Really wanted to believe that intake was OK for Shiv's reflash, but hopes have now really waned. Naturally, I junked my stock intake. Never thought I'd need it again. Oh Well, guess I'll plant myself in the customer lounge of local Suby dealership, do my best imitation of an AEM rep, and bilk, I meant swap, for stock intake from new rex owner. As I mentioned before, would like to start Shiv's performance upgrade path. Again, thanks for your info. Collins

Originally posted by Collins
Thank you very much for this info. It all makes sense, even with my limited tuner knowledge. Really wanted to believe that intake was OK for Shiv's reflash, but hopes have now really waned. Naturally, I junked my stock intake. Never thought I'd need it again. Oh Well, guess I'll plant myself in the customer lounge of local Suby dealership, do my best imitation of an AEM rep, and bilk, I meant swap, for stock intake from new rex owner. As I mentioned before, would like to start Shiv's performance upgrade path. Again, thanks for your info. Collins

No problem man. I think you made a wise choice. Post an add in the wanted forums for a stock airbox and snorkel. Offer a trade in the buy classifieds for your AEM. Someone probably wants it. They work ok if you have something that is tuned for them so they are not useless.. Just not going to help...

Clark

Collins,
I did the same thing you did back in December. Really wanted to keep my AEM but finally relented and put the stock back on. I have a lightly modded car - uppipe, dp, catback and after the ECUTek reflash, produced 212 at the wheels. I don't miss the AEM at all - except for the sound of the stock BOV under WOT. The smooth power has more than made up for it.

I currently run the AEM CAI, and I've toyed with the idea of putting the stock airbox back in. One question, though. Does replacing the stock airbox also mean replacing the snorklepuss? I still have both of them in the cubby of my parking stall, just curious.

I would. Otherwise you'll just be sucking in a lot of hot engine air.

Originally posted by EtchyLives
Does replacing the stock airbox also mean replacing the snorklepuss?

Not if you don't want to. My opinion is that you would be getting just a little less of the benefit of truly cool air that the CAI would give you.

I think that the pros outweigh the cons of stock airbox sans snorkus vs. CAI.

I did write an email to Shiv asking what all the fuss was about aftermarket intakes and CAI's, but as of yet, no reply.

Pat

If intakes were truly so detramental, then why in the heck to like all high HP cars in the world run them?

I suspect that Shiv MAY (Read *MAY*) denounce them because they do not have a Vishnu label on them.

Originally posted by BADWRX
I suspect that Shiv MAY (Read *MAY*) denounce them because they do not have a Vishnu label on them.

Ding Ding Ding..... we have a winner!!!!. Thats how he is from what I hear.

Originally posted by scoobiesnacks
Ding Ding Ding..... we have a winner!!!!. Thats how he is from what I hear. I've never met Shiv, but I'm happy with Vishnu's stuff. I'm gonna reserve judgement on Shiv as a businessman and person until I actually meet or speak with him. :)

__________________
--
ww
"...axles of evil..." - George W. Bush

I know he makes good products but I've heard war stories about him not wanting to tune stuff that is not his product or not tuning it like it's to get the most out of it.

I guess I'll say something.
It's not too polite to rip someone who isn't here. Then again, i have never been know to be too polite:)
Shiv IS smart. He does know A Lot about cars and especially TUNING. He does MAKE , from good sources, very good money.
Question: Would you make more money if you gave 20 people a good tune or one a GREAT tune.
I am sure he is bombarded with wrx (and other cars) this and that. Funny things always happen as you increase supply. In order to meet the mass desires Q/C always goes down. It's the price people pay to make that stab at riches.
That right there, answers it all.

As for the intakes, I am sure you all know, well you know now... those stoopid intakes increase air volume A LOT more than stock. I spend more time tuning cars with those things. Tuning becomes more labor intensive. It is so much easier and nicer when people don't have them in the car. it makes TUNING ALOT easier. I should just tell people they are crap/no good so I can always have quick easy tunes:)

Do you all get my drift????

Hi guys,

Just to clear up a few issues. We do not recommend intakes for a very simply, easy-to-verify reason:

They induce MAF sensor misreadings while providing NO appreciable improvement in airflow (up to ~400hp from what I've seen on my own WRX).

Will we tune an intake-equipped car that comes to our shop for custom dyno tuning? Of course, we will. We have done in the past. However, we owe it to the customer to inform him regarding the lack of pros and cons associated with the intake. I'm not particulary happy with charging a customer an extra hour of work when the end result makes no more power/torque than a similarly modded car without an intake. I suspect the customer will feel the same to a degree.

As for mail-order re-mapped ECUs, there is no chance of us sending out ECUs mapped for intakes. Making such a map requires considerable dyno and road tuning. Not to mention the FACT that rotating rotating aftermarket intake tube yield appreciable changes in MAF readings and, as a result, A/F ratios.

Cheers,
shiv
www.vishnutuning.com

Originally posted by BADWRX
If intakes were truly so detramental, then why in the heck to like all high HP cars in the world run them?

I suspect that Shiv MAY (Read *MAY*) denounce them because they do not have a Vishnu label on them.

And you would be wrong, sorry. Trust me, I would love to sell an pretty anodized bent tube with a filter for 3 times what it costs to produce. I'm pretty confident that it would sell well enough to justify what little effort it would take to design and manufacturer it. But making and promoting something that does harm and virtually no good is hard to justify.

Just my 2c,
Shiv
www.vishnutuning.com

Originally posted by christoph1371
I guess I'll say something.
It's not too polite to rip someone who isn't here. Then again, i have never been know to be too polite:)
Shiv IS smart. He does know A Lot about cars and especially TUNING. He does MAKE , from good sources, very good money.
Question: Would you make more money if you gave 20 people a good tune or one a GREAT tune.
I am sure he is bombarded with wrx (and other cars) this and that. Funny things always happen as you increase supply. In order to meet the mass desires Q/C always goes down. It's the price people pay to make that stab at riches.
That right there, answers it all.


Not quite Chris. As with just about every excercise, the more cars one tunes, the more he learns. In other words the accumlated knowledge/experience of tuning 10 cars to the best of one's ability is greater than the knowledge/experience of tuning one car to the best of one's ability. To say that I'm taking a "stab at riches" leaves me to question your motives. Perhaps that "answers it all."

And to suggest that I don't recommend intakes because I don't like spending the necessary time tuning wouldn't explain the 15-20 hours a week I spend tuning on the dyno and testing on the road. And to suggest that intakes improve airflow "A LOT" is equally misinformative and disingenuous.

Regards,
Shiv
www.vishnutuning.com

Just something to think about...

In Japan, the intakes aren't as big of a product as they are here. Most Japanese companies offer intakes which are simply a "filter kit". Which means it is just a MAS adapter and a cone element.

At the same time, replacement panel filters are very popular.

AEM is distributed in Japan, but they do not sell their at all.

Go figure...

- Alex

May I "suggest" that people start businesses to make money?
A simple business model would show that Q/c does dissipate with increasing supply+demand.

Airflow does increase...I am not saying it's any better. The ECU is only as good as its inputs. Once you alter them (air intake/air flow) the precalibrated ECU finds difficulty in reading the new data.

Everyone knows that spending "X" time on a budgeted project appropriate. Spending "X" + “more” time is a diminishing return…economic fact.

You or anyone can question my motives all day. I am just laying out facts of most business operations, which you may or may not fall into.

Regards,
Chris

Originally posted by christoph1371
May I "suggest" that people start businesses to make money?
A simple business model would show that Q/c does dissipate with increasing supply+demand.

A tuning shop does not follow a "simple business model." The quality of the tuning service provided is based upon on-going research and development which, interestingly enough, is augmented the more service is provided. This is why we have already mapped all six different WRX ECU types for no less than 4 different modification stages. Yes, that's 24 different baseline files we currently have available for our customers. And each one was refined and tested through no less than 3 or 4 different cars. None of this would be possible if we didn't have an in-house dyno and a busy in-house tuning schedule. Without this, we would simply be cutting pasting the calibration map data of, say a AF424 ECU into that of the AJ030 ECU without actually testing it to the degree it needs to be tested. And no, checking for knock corrections while driving on the road isn't enough.

QUOTE]Originally posted by christoph1371
Airflow does increase...I am not saying it's any better. The ECU is only as good as its inputs. Once you alter them (air intake/air flow) the precalibrated ECU finds difficulty in reading the new data. [/QUOTE]

The ECU finds it difficult to read the new data because much of the air mass smashes against the side of the tube, missing the hot film in the MAF sensor. This is why MAF readings are lower (not greater) with aftermarket intakes. Hence, the lean-run conditions intakes tend to induce. This does not equate to more airflow as illustrated by dyno testing on WRXs running MAF-less speed density systems based engine control systems.

QUOTE]Originally posted by christoph1371
Everyone knows that spending "X" time on a budgeted project appropriate. Spending "X" + “more” time is a diminishing return…economic fact[/QUOTE]

Again, we're not dealing with a economic model. Tuning is about problem solving. And problem solving does not follow the laws of deminishing returns. Either you solve the problem, or you don't. Sometimes it takes one hour, sometimes three. Without the use of a dyno, it's virtually impossible to know if there is a problem in the first place, let alone being able to solve it. It's really easy to overestimate one's tuning acumen when you don't test it objectively.

Road tuning off of Delta Dash knock corrections is simply inadequate. It's very easy to see nice positive numbers everywhere. It's a lot harder to figure out why the expected power isn't being generated at one particular engine speed or another-- as one often would if he were using a dyno for initial mapping/testing.

QUOTE]Originally posted by christoph1371
You or anyone can question my motives all day. I am just laying out facts of most business operations, which you may or may not fall into.[/QUOTE]

I don't think you know enough about anyone's buniness operation other than your own. Let's leave it at that and move on.

Regards,
Shiv

Wow, I don't see much that you have said that I do not already believe. I have kept on telling everyone that DYNO tuning alone was inadequate and not to count on a dyno tune to create the optimum map.

I simply do not like people who think that all good tuning occurs ONLY on a dyno. You hear the mantra constantly, "my car was DYNO tuned”. A person rarely hears, "my car was street tuned".
And who ever tunes soley by checking for knock corrections while driving? Now that's just lame.


1. I am sure there are intakes that follow “the less air” model. However, can we say that theory applies to all intakes, does it just apply to certain ones or does it apply to certain ones on WRX’s only? As a scientist (career/college background…Biological science) it is hard for me to say for certainty that “all” of anything means anything. (Did that make sense?) I usually like my results/theorems documented with empirical data.
I find some good data in the things you post, but not everything you post…I need more data.

2. I agree tuning is about problem solving. Are you saying solving = success? What is a successful tune? Tuning is neither on nor off. Would anyone argue it doesn’t adhere to a measurable scale? So is 80% of the cars’ potential a successful tune? Or is only 100% a successful tune?

3. It can be argued by many, that in order to maximize your earnings you need to maximize your time on any given project. More projects = more earnings…no? The question that always interests me is…at what point does the quality of the project go down?

4. As a consultant, I have worked for quite a few “successful” Silicon Valley companies. I can say from first hand experience that a great majority of those companies have, like it or not, all fallen victim to basic economic laws. That is why, as I try and dabble in my own tiny business, I try to capitalize on their successes and not to make the mistakes I see other businesses doing.

Of course, that would mean that my perception of success/failure is the same as theirs. Which it isn’t…hence, the never solved dilemma?

This is why I question practically EVERYTHING. Isn’t science GREAT!

Regards,
Chris

how much would the stage 0 hurt the car if i were to have a short ram on? i heard it runs lean but i think the MAF should be ok

I think the REAL reason lots of people use an anodized aftermarket air cleaner/snorkel is simple.............

Its cool to look at,

I myself prefer the nice cool fender well air.

Its your ride.

SHotgun

Shogun,

Pffffft! Another blunt steretyping statement...

AEM, Injen, Weapon R and most other intake get the air from the fender well. As a matter of fact, The OEM intake DOESN't get it from the fender. So with them you get as cold of an air as you an get. But thats not we are talking about in here.

OK, I'm not a tuning person, I just get in the gears, not a scientist, but love to get my hands dirty. I still haven't heard, "read" the yes/no on a cai. For the most part I am hearing that no is more suitable, and brings the question to this. If the maf can't make up for the sudden on rush of air, are their aftermarket maf's sold so we don't have to spend 1-3 hours more on the dyno. Besides I think we all know it's not an COLD air intake, unless of course you live in ALASKA. Bottom line, 1.)Does look cool; 2.) Does increase airflow, 3.) Does weigh less than OE, 4.) And again, I think it falls back to what alot of people say, your ride, your dollar...... My $.02 worth. Besides I'm a california graduate, jack of all trades, master of NONE..........

Vishnu has spoken! SO shall it be written, So shall it be done :-) laters Mikal

No one should have to accept the word of one person as gospel truth. I say this even though I agree with Shiv on the subject of cold-air intakes.

This opinion is further elaborated upon by BAN SUVS here (www.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=36823&postid=310277#post310277). Maybe we should re-post that as a 'sticky', Kevin.

Thanks for making it a sticky! :)

Here is the subject of cold-air intakes (www.wrxforum.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000395) again, this time as explained by Josh of COBB Tuning.

--
0==WW==0
"…axles of evil…" - george w. bush

I stickied it. At least it will be easier to find. :)

Originally posted by Wingless Wonder
No one should have to accept the word of one person as gospel truth. I say this even though I agree with Shiv on the subject of cold-air intakes.

This opinion is further elaborated upon by BAN SUVS here (www.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=36823&postid=310277#post310277). Maybe we should re-post that as a 'sticky', Kevin.

Thanks for making it a sticky! :)

Here is the subject of cold-air intakes (www.wrxforum.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000395) again, this time as explained by Josh of COBB Tuning.

--
0==WW==0
"…axles of evil…" - george w. bush


Great post!:D

If intakes are so harmful, then explain why the top tuner WRXs in Japan and Australia are all using pod intakes? I agree that cold air intake is a waste, but a good pod filter like a Blitz SUS or a MRT Ram Pod is not a waste of money, and can provide some gains.


They are running crazy hp numbers, 500 to 800 hp, i don't think anything in there engine bay is stock, maybe the washerfulid container.

that was worth the 10 month wait . . .

Just out of curiosity, has anyone tampered with/replaced/upgraded the actual MAF sensor that seems to be the issue here? If the problem is giving that sensor data that is outside of its known parameters, why not just change the parameters? So much of the stock ECUs settings are manageable, I am surprised that there is no software or hardware "hack" to get around the strict sensitivity of the MAF.

Also, is there any benefit to cleaning or replacing the MAF? It is extremely dusty here in AZ, and even though I change my air filter every 3 months or so, it is often BLACK when I do so -- there has to be some dust and gunk on it by now.

Just out of curiosity, has anyone tampered with/replaced/upgraded the actual MAF sensor that seems to be the issue here?


Yes, there are systems out there with upgraded MAFs that have a wider voltage range. The stock one can, from what I've hear, hit 5.0 ... I've seen 4.9 on my UTEC's logs with a stock airbox (capped off snorkle).

jason

Vinshu I disagree and not in a major way just a litte. The Arc cooling box which adapts to your stock box is an outstanding upgrade that does not run the risk of giving you the problems that say the Apexi Power intake would give. Even a few friends of mine have this box with no Ecu management upgrades and have had no problems for over a year now. They have all had their car dynoed before and after and we even had it done on one 94 RA 4 times in one year to see if the Ecu would change something to bring the numbers back down but nope nothing. I do agree that the MAF does not agree with cone style air coolers and causes the car to lean out and cause serious problems.