I have been researching brakes recently. After alot of reading I have found what I believe to be THE BEST brake company out there. I have setup a deal with The Brake Man (http://www.thebrakeman.com) and I have setup a great system for us. The system includes the following for the WRX:

Front Only Kit:
2 Tornado F4 Forged Billet Calipers w/4 1.50" pistons per caliper
Your choice of Procast 2 piece Cast Iron Rotors (Round, w/ Gas Slots) or the Revolution Steel Rotor (Convoluted Inner and Outer Diameter) The Front procast rotors are better for guys who run at road courses and autocrosses, and the Front Revolution rotors are better for drag racers.
High-performance pads
Steel Braided Lines

The Four Wheel Kit includes Everything above plus:
2 Tornado F1 Forged Billet Calipers w/2 1.75" pistons per caliper
The Revolution Steel Rotor w/Convoluted Inner and Outer Diameter (recommended) or the Procast Cast Iron Rotors
High-performance pads
Steel Braided Lines


If you are wondering why this kit is better then brembo, stoptech, wilwood or any other, I can give a number of reasons.

The WRX front only kit is: $2392.50(MSRP $2983.00)
The WRX 4 Wheel kit is: $3741.00(MSRP $4665.00)
Email me for the price of the Xtreme6 Brake Fluid

Note to RS owners: The kits will basically be the same parts except the RS uses the F3 caliper. The price will be about $200 less then the WRX kit.

If you are a Racer, or go to car shows, send me an email and we can see what we can work out.

Note to Dealers: I also have special dealer pricing. Send me an email and we can work out pricing.

Well, it seems that price is not one of the reasons. 2400 for just the fronts. :eek: I mean the StopTech kit is like 1k less and it is a really high quality kit. And the Wilwoods I can get for like 850.

Originally posted by ImprezaRSDriver
Well, it seems that price is not one of the reasons. 2400 for just the fronts. :eek: I mean the StopTech kit is like 1k less and it is a really high quality kit. And the Wilwoods I can get for like 850.

I agree many of the kits, such as the StopTech are good. But In my mind good is not always good enough.

A few things you should as yourself when choosing a kit is, will the kit...

Fit the stock wheels
Considerably reduce unsprung weight
Make it easier to change pads
Provide a better selection of pads
Improve cooling
Increase rotor diameter (but not to the point that brake bias is upset)
Reduce rotor weight
Increase clamping force
Reduce flexing of caliper assembly
Make servicing of brakes easier
Reduce drag on rotor when not braking

I think that StopTech meets all of the above except for wheels. And so does the Wilwood Kit.

Originally posted by ImprezaRSDriver
I think that StopTech meets all of the above except for wheels. And so does the Wilwood Kit.

The stoptech is inferior to the kit above in the following ways:

Fit the stock wheels

Considerably reduce unsprung weight - The stoptechs calipers are heavy

Reduce rotor weight - the rear assembly on my kit is much lighter then the stock rotor

Reduce flexing of caliper assembly - The Brake Man calipers are made form Forged Billet Aluminum with a steel center section that makes it one of the most rigid calipers that money can buy.

Reduce drag on rotor when not braking - Actually The Brake Man is the ONLY manufacturer that sells calipers that fully release the brake rotors.

Originally posted by AaronC
The stoptech is inferior to the kit above in the following ways:

Fit the stock wheels

Considerably reduce unsprung weight - The stoptechs calipers are heavy

Reduce rotor weight - the rear assembly on my kit is much lighter then the stock rotor

Reduce flexing of caliper assembly - The Brake Man calipers are made form Forged Billet Aluminum with a steel center section that makes it one of the most rigid calipers that money can buy.

Reduce drag on rotor when not braking - Actually The Brake Man is the ONLY manufacturer that sells calipers that fully release the brake rotors.

Okay,

1. Have you felt the weight of the StopTech calipers? They are not heavy at all. I will say for sure that they are lighter than the stock calipers that come with the car.

2. Rotor Weight - The StopTech rotors are machined aluminum and not cast iron. Those are really light also.

3. Caliper Flex - Uh, that is why StopTech designed the bridge system for their caliper to reduce flex. And it is a patented design that really makes sense.

4. I am sure that StopTech has considered it and you have to remember that it is a possible safety issue. I mean think about it.

I have this kit on my car and it is one of the original pre-production trial kits. I still can say that this kit is not inferior in anyway. I am not promoting anything but just stating the facts. I am sure that the Brake Man kit is nice and everything, but I still do not see a justification in spending over another 1K on brakes when the StopTechs are more than adequate.

Rotor weight is a good thing in some respects as it will help to deal with the thermal considerations that would be the primary reason for going with a brake upgrade.

Can you comment on the fade resistance of your cauliflowered rotors? My experiences with rotors like this is that they are primarily for show and weight reduction and and have significantly poorer thermal capabilities when compared to plain or slotted rotors.

Can you comment on expected lifespan on the rotors under stress (track days)?

What is the expected replacement cost of the rotors?

What is the selection of pads available? Do you have an FMSI number for the backing plate? What are the other common applications?

Can you comment on the total brake torque with respect to the stock brakes? You mention that your calipers increase clamping force, at the same time you are increasing rotor diameter, which is also increasing braking torque. The total resulting torque increase would appear to be very large, which is the OPPOSITE direction that all the main big brake kit manufacturers tend to head. The Wilwood 6 pot kit? Less torque than stock. The Stoptech kit? Less torque than stock. The two Brembo kits recently reviewed in C&D? Also less torque than stock. AP Racing? Yep, also less torque than stock. C&D publishes all the numbers necessary to find this info in their article on the Brembo and Stoptech kits. So why is it a good thing that your kit has so much more torque than stock? It isn't.

You claim stiffer calipers than others on the market. Do you have comparative data to share? You tout multipiece billiet calipers as very good for stiffness, yet when I have talked to people who design brake systems from Precision Brakes Company, Wilwood, and Stoptech, they all have said that cast calipers tend to be stiffer, and the fewer pieces the better. They noted billet calipers tend to have an advantage in the line pressures they are able to deal with. One person even said that billet calipers were primarily for looks, and even though he loved the look of the billet calipers he would never use them at the track.

Your claims seem contradictory to several significant and historically very successful players in the brake arena. I would be very interested how this veritable no-name has suddenly dramatically improved on systems created by Brembo, AP, and Stoptech developed through years of research, track work and testing.

Thank You Concillian. You made my point. I was just too lazy to type all that out. I just wanted to make it short.:)

Originally posted by Concillian
Can you comment on the fade resistance of your cauliflowered rotors? My experiences with rotors like this is that they are primarily for show and weight reduction and and have significantly poorer thermal capabilities when compared to plain or slotted rotors.


Like I said in the ad the convoluted rotors are needed primarily for the rear. On the front you really need to have the cast rotors. The rear brakes are not under severe load. The Revolution design is used on motorcycles alot. BUT if you do not like this design you can get the solid cast iron rotors for the same cost. There are company's that sell cast aluminum rotors. Some of them have been matrixed with other elements to improve life and wearability. Unfortunately, they have extremely limited applications because aluminum will soften considerably at temperatures easily seen in the average brake systems. Also, when cast aluminum rotors have been altered with other ingredients to improve wearability, the result could be a loss of braking efficiency. This is called "coefficient of friction." Simply put, the lower the coefficient of friction, the lower the braking torque being created. BTW slotted rotors do nothing for performance. They are for look only.

Originally posted by Concillian
Can you comment on expected lifespan on the rotors under stress (track days)?


I do not have any hard numbers on this, but the pads I sell are actually made from non-metallic materials so they are easy on the rotors. Of course when you are running hard on a track there is alot more wear and tear on them then would ever be experienced on the street.

Originally posted by Concillian
What is the selection of pads available? Do you have an FMSI number for the backing plate? What are the other common applications?


http://www.thebrakeman.com/racepads

Originally posted by Concillian
What is the expected replacement cost of the rotors?


The cost is about $100-120.

Originally posted by Concillian
Can you comment on the total brake torque with respect to the stock brakes? You mention that your calipers increase clamping force, at the same time you are increasing rotor diameter, which is also increasing braking torque. The total resulting torque increase would appear to be very large, which is the OPPOSITE direction that all the main big brake kit manufacturers tend to head. The Wilwood 6 pot kit? Less torque than stock. The Stoptech kit? Less torque than stock. The two Brembo kits recently reviewed in C&D? Also less torque than stock. AP Racing? Yep, also less torque than stock. C&D publishes all the numbers necessary to find this info in their article on the Brembo and Stoptech kits. So why is it a good thing that your kit has so much more torque than stock? It isn't.


Actually the reason that many of the companies you listed use less clamping force is because they use small pistons in the kit. The reason for this is to maintain the relative on/off feel that the stock brakes have. The calipers here have large pistons that make the brake pedal have a linear feel, much like a race car does. Braking is about physics not about opinion. Simply stated there is no reason to lower your braking torque. NONE.

Originally posted by Concillian
You claim stiffer calipers than others on the market. Do you have comparative data to share? You tout multipiece billiet calipers as very good for stiffness, yet when I have talked to people who design brake systems from Precision Brakes Company, Wilwood, and Stoptech, they all have said that cast calipers tend to be stiffer, and the fewer pieces the better. They noted billet calipers tend to have an advantage in the line pressures they are able to deal with. One person even said that billet calipers were primarily for looks, and even though he loved the look of the billet calipers he would never use them at the track.


True, cast billet calipers do look nice, but they have a kind of grain to the metal that is formed during the manufacturing process. This can make them weak. The cast 7075 aluminum calipers like the ones you mentioned above have a problem with weakness as well. Like I stated about the calipers I sell are FORGED billet aluminum which has good heat capabilities, and since it is forged it is EXTREMELY strong, not to mention the fact that there is a steel C-section in these that help them to be even stronger.

Originally posted by Concillian
Your claims seem contradictory to several significant and historically very successful players in the brake arena. I would be very interested how this veritable no-name has suddenly dramatically improved on systems created by Brembo, AP, and Stoptech developed through years of research, track work and testing.


Who is this guy that is making the iron horse? Henry Ford who? Actually the guy who founded "The Brake Man" has been designing brakes for 35 years. Many of the designs that these companies use currently are designs he came up with years ago, including AP and Brembo racings mono-bloc caliper design(which he found to not be rigid enough. Here is an article about him: http://www.thebrakeman.com/about

Here is a review of the convoluted design rotors on a motorcycle.

http://www.motorcycledaily.com/19september02productreview.html

Okay so basically, AP, Alcon, Brembo, Wilwood, and StopTech are all companies that copied him basically. You also never mentioned about brake bias on his calipers. Do they send more braking power to the rear or keep all of the power to the front?

Even though you mention he gives a more linear feel through the pedal. StopTech's setup gives me a linear feel and many others agree that it is a linear feel once it is on the car. Because StopTech calipers can be custom designed with various piston sizes. I know the person that helped design the StopTech kits for StopTech and I know that he has quite a few years under his belt with knowledge of Subarus.

Just remember, it is easy to say here is a brake kit that will bolt right onto the Imprezas and look nice, but it should be more than just that. It seems like this kit is more for show than performance.

Oh yeah, how do the kits work with the ABS system?

Being a vendor for these brake kits does make your opinion not very valid and a bit biased.

And claiming that one design is better over the other is not going to get you too far. People want real data.

I commend your enthusiasm towards this product, but you're being a salesperson or worse you've been suckerd into a deal that if you can drum up a few sales you'll get something in return from these guys.


[/jumps in flame suit]

Originally posted by ImprezaRSDriver
You also never mentioned about brake bias on his calipers. Do they send more braking power to the rear or keep all of the power to the front?

Obviously they keep more power to the front on the "front only system". :) One of the first questions I asked them was how their brakes were balanced. Because the front brakes are very powerful you can put their rear calipers on and keep the stock brake bias(many other kits, ie stoptech do not make rear kits because their front calipers have less torque then stock).


Originally posted by ImprezaRSDriver
Oh yeah, how do the kits work with the ABS system?

Great! Because they have higher flow then stock to the calipers they provide faster abs response.

Originally posted by teiva-boy
Being a vendor for these brake kits does make your opinion not very valid and a bit biased.
And claiming that one design is better over the other is not going to get you too far. People want real data.
I commend your enthusiasm towards this product, but you're being a salesperson or worse you've been suckerd into a deal that if you can drum up a few sales you'll get something in return from these guys.

[/jumps in flame suit]

Anyone who is really interested in this kit can email me and I will cut them a MAJOR deal. I will give them their money back if they do not like them. That is how sure I am of the kits. I do not beleive that I will get a single one back. I have done alot of research recently, looking at different brake manufacturers, and their strategies for brake systems, and these guys are amazing.

Yes, I am a bit biased. I really do beleive in the kits. Call them at 805-987-7867 and ask them why they think that they make better brakes then everyone else. They can tell you better then I.

As for the last comment, I am actually a distributor for them. So I guess that "these guys" are me now. ;)

As far as real data goes, how about 90% of the sprint race cars have the brake man brakes on them.

Here is an interesting article.

http://www.chtopping.com/str95/
http://www.chtopping.com/str95/examples12/examples12.html

Note that Warren Gilliland "The Brake Man" is quoted as a Respected Source?

Faster ABS Response? I dunno if you know or not but I know that there are a lot of people who are putting in ABS Switches in their cars because the ABS already responds quite fast and kicks in when they do not want it to. I am not sure that there are those that do not want it to kick in even faster.

Well, then I guess companies like Ferrari, Porsche, and BMW all should be using brake man parts because their brake systems are inferior. :rolleyes:

When I saw the initial post, I thought I'd have to do a thorough de-bunking. But now I see it's not necessary since the other posters have done a pretty good job already.

Buy these brakes if you have:

a) A street rod. :rolleyes:
b) A sprint car. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
c) an overwhelming desire to sacrifice braking performance for show car styling. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Otherwise, if you drive your Subaru hard on the street or the track, just get one of the un-forged, un-wavy, boring old cast iron brake kits from hopelessly out of touch dinosaurs like AP Racing, Brembo, or Stoptech. What you lose in bling, you'll more than make up for in feel and real world braking performance.

Whatever Warren Gilliland's technical qualifications may be, they are clearly overshadowed by his skills as a salesman.

I see the only benefit that has been given that is a legitamate positive over Stoptech is that they fit on the stock rim, and there is a rear option and there is debate whether that is even a benefit for most.

Stoptechs are not heavy and are way lighter than the stock setups. Can't remember now but the Caliper and bracket is like 10lbs a side lighter. rotor is lighter too.

Not trying to put down your product here but you have to give some real reasons.

Faster ABS responce is not going to help. You need to trick the ASB system into thinking the car is not stoping as fast as it is or the ABS is going off anyway.

Anyway, you can get a Stoptech kit with the following for $1695

Front kit with slotted or drilled rotors
rear drilled rotors
4 wheel dot aproved ss brake line kit
motul brake fluid.

How again is yours a deal? I would always like a better product but you have not given any data or compairison.

Have you done a brake kit shoot out like the other kits have been in? Please share some of your extensive recent research that shows how these are amazing over the competition.

Then you try to corral the interested people that may not know to do the research and not trust sales persons so you can work on them away from this dieing thread.

The StopTech's are lighter, according to Car & Driver Magazine.

Also, you have e-mail.

Oh, e-mail wasn't working, you have p.m.

Originally posted by Jon Bogert

Otherwise, if you drive your Subaru hard on the street or the track, just get one of the un-forged, un-wavy, boring old cast iron brake kits from hopelessly out of touch dinosaurs like AP Racing, Brembo, or Stoptech. What you lose in bling, you'll more than make up for in feel and real world braking performance.


You gotta be kidding me right? The WHOLE design of these brakes is to increase performance.

take a look at what the S2000 guys are saying about these brakes.

http://www.s2ki.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=49785&highlight=Pinnacle

Not much critical discussion there. The vendor says "they're great, blah, blah, blah" his customer says, "yeah what he said" and all the S2000 owners say, "wow, those rotors look cool!"

Let's start with problem #1. These brakes have less thermal capacity than stock, and much less than good aftermarket kits. Improved heat dissipation is nice, but it's no substitute for the security of a high-quality cast iron rotor. The Brakeman promotional materials dance around this fact, but it's something that an aggressive driver in a 3000+ lb car needs to keep in mind. The tech pages on the Brakeman site warn against using these rotors in high-stress situations, but you left that part out of your sales pitch.

Promote the wave rotor as a fashion accessory--like cross drilled rotors--and no one will have a problem with it. But when you start talking about improved braking performance with these things, your credibility goes south quickly.

Other wacky stuff:

- "Actually The Brake Man is the ONLY manufacturer that sells calipers that fully release the brake rotors"

This feature (if it were true) would be a problem that will need to be remedied by a residual pressure valve.

- "The Brake Man calipers are made form Forged Billet Aluminum with a steel center section that makes it one of the most rigid calipers that money can buy."

I call BS. Post some numbers to back this up or don't claim it. I'd like to see how "forged billet aluminum" compares to a Brembo monoblock. How does forging increase stiffness by weight anyhow? Forging metal makes it tougher, but not more rigid. And why do you need the steel in there, anyway?

- "Actually the reason that many of the companies you listed use less clamping force is becasue they use small pistons in the kit. The reason for this is to maintain the relative on/off feel that the stock brakes have. The calipers here have large pistons that make the brake pedal have a linear feel, much like a race car does. Braking is about physics not about opinion. Simply stated there is no reason to lower your braking torque. NONE."

Huh?!? Exactly the opposite of what you said is true. Have you ever driven a car with a well engineered brake system and high quality four piston calipers? "On/off feel" isn't the term I would use. As Concillian posted, brake torque is not a "more is better" proposition. Unless you need more pad pressure to compensate for other shortcomings of the design. For one thing, modulation is much better and more accurate when the brakes have less pad pressure. Why do you think top-end calipers have 6 or 8 pistons? To evenly distibute the clamping force over a large area.

Geez, my fingers are getting tired. Ok Lets see what I can cover... Not that you would beleive me anyway, but, here it goes.

Originally posted by Jon Bogert Let's start with problem #1. These brakes have less thermal capacity than stock, and much less than good aftermarket kits. Improved heat dissipation is nice, but it's no substitute for the security of a high-quality cast iron rotor.

Basically you need to match the rotor and the caliper to the car. After extensive testing The Brake Man has found that the best match to the car is the kit I am selling. The Brake Man sells 14" rotors with internal heat sinks and calipers with massive 2" pistons in them. Would these kits be good? No. Because it is too much brake for the car. The idea in choosing what components is to find the best braking force (read matched to the car) while keeping the smallest (read lightest) rotor.

Originally posted by Jon Bogert The tech pages on the Brakeman site warn against using these rotors in high-stress situations, but you left that part out of your sales pitch.

High-stress means they are not good for the front rotors in race situations.

Originally posted by Jon Bogert This feature (if it were true) would be a problem that will need to be remedied by a residual pressure valve.

Ding! Ding! Ding! You win the prize. The kit comes with residual valves.

Originally posted by Jon Bogert I call BS. Post some numbers to back this up or don't claim it.

Um if i did produce numbers would you believe it? Not likely.

Originally posted by Jon Bogert I'd like to see how "forged billet aluminum" compares to a Brembo monoblock. How does forging increase stiffness by weight anyhow? Forging metal makes it tougher, but not more rigid.

Um, you imply a disparity when there is none. Tougher=Stronger=More Rigid. The Forged Billet aluminum alloy has 50% greater structural integrity than even a standard billet caliper and over 100% more than a cast caliper.

Originally posted by Jon Bogert And why do you need the steel in there, anyway?

The steel is there to make the caliper more rigid.

Originally posted by Jon Bogert As Concillian posted, brake torque is not a "more is better" proposition. Unless you need more pad pressure to compensate for other shortcomings of the design. For one thing, modulation is much better and more accurate when the brakes have less pad pressure. Why do you think top-end calipers have 6 or 8 pistons? To evenly distribute the clamping force over a large area.

Yes there are kits that have the 6, 8 and 10 piston calipers. They are WAY too much brake for the car. It is all about matching components to the car, keeping the lightest and strongest components. As you know one of the goals of a race brake system it to have most linear application of force that the tires can accept, meanwhile allowing the driver to keep the car on the verge of locking the wheel, which allows the driver the most control of the car during braking. You have a certain amount of g-forces that the tire can maintain during braking. you want to be at 100% of traction. If you have a brake system that is not matched to the car and the type of tire being used then the tire can easily go over the traction limit. That is what happens to many drivers under hard braking.

Actually they tested and, because of demand have sold 13" kits, but they have always recommended using the 12.19" rotor because it matches the car and the caliper. The guys that got the 13" rotors are now reporting that they wish they had gotten the 12.19" and are now getting the smaller rotors

Why are guys always so mean???

I am by no means a tuner, brake pro, mechanic, or tech.... but I have these brakes. No they don't just look good. They work VERY well.

I have had other brake systems (I will not name names) and they all were pretty close in braking distance. For the first couple stops anyway.

After several hard braking/cornering.... I had brake fade with the last two systems. This new setup I have does not fade, and in my opinion a higher quality system. Both in build quality and function. For the same price points, I would not choose any other system than the Brakeman kit I am currently running.

I don't claim or try to act like I know everything because I don't.

I'm just telling you these things work as well as they look.

Just because you don't understand it, or have no knowledge of something that may be new to you... doesn't mean it doesn't work, or isn't functional.

Aaron you have done well with all the flaming. I don't come to this board to often because of responses like some of the above. People are very quick to judge and flame away. Don't take it to heart... this board is a bit more harsh compared to some of the forums that don't know everything.

I have had people ask how light my hood is compared to another hood (difference may be a few pounds) but they have two 12' woofers in their trunk and 19' rims - go figure.

This is not directed at any one person... but you know who you are. The ones who only post to flame. This board should be about sharing knowledge and learning from each other.... just my opinion.

Flame away... I been around here awhile. I'm used to it.

We just wanted some reasons other than this kit cost twice what others do.

He has given some good explenations as of latter. It was just his poor opening saying how amazing these were from just reading about other brake settups than saying how they were a way better deal without any reasons.

My stoptechs can handle 10 hard stops form 60 to 5 mph one right after another without any fade until the 8th stop then you feel a little but it still stops just as hard right past the 10th stop.

I still donot see a deal about this kit or how it is any better. I read the whole brake man webpage also. Just dont see how they cost so much.

Originally posted by david2z4
We just wanted some reasons other than this kit cost twice what others do.
He has given some good explenations as of latter. It was just his poor opening saying how amazing these were from just reading about other brake settups than saying how they were a way better deal without any reasons.
My stoptechs can handle 10 hard stops form 60 to 5 mph one right after another without any fade until the 8th stop then you feel a little but it still stops just as hard right past the 10th stop.
I still donot see a deal about this kit or how it is any better. I read the whole brake man webpage also. Just dont see how they cost so much.

I guess it come down to this. This kit uses the very best materials, like nickel-plating the parts, etc. This is a VERY high-quality kit that is not for everyone. It is for those who are willing to spend the extra money to get that extra edge.

Rayder, it's good that you found a brake kit that meets your needs. Perhaps this kit--like blue anodized cross-drilled rotors--will meet the needs and wants of many Subaru owners. There is nothing wrong with promoting neat new products to the sorts of people who have some room on the old Visa and want to dress up their ride.

Regarding my comments and questions, I'm not sure how you consider them flames. I almost never flame. In 2000+ posts on the (original) i-Club, you'll have a hard time finding a single post where I personally insulted someone, with the possible exception of the SCCA ProRally department. :D

Aaron posted some questionable and misleading information, though, and that's something that requires response. When resellers selling a new and unproven technical product spit out brochure-speak that might lead a newbie to make a bad decision, it's the duty of knowledgable people to come forward and debunk. That's what makes a technical forum like this worthwhile. On the old i-Club, there were quite a few engineers, master techs and hardcore racers who would give good advice to the weekly "what brakes should I get" questions.

It does raise the bar for vendors, of course. If you're selling something new, you can't just use a forum like this as a one way internet billboard. It's like Reebok trying to sell you a cool new sneaker, but you've got three orthopedists, a Phd in biomechanics and Michael Jordan there to give you advice.

If it weren't for the knowledge sharing you call "flames" we'd all be driving around running electric superchargers, with magnets on our fuel lines and Amsoil in our oil pan. :lol:

Originally posted by AaronC
Originally posted by Jon Bogert Let's start with problem #1. These brakes have less thermal capacity than stock,

Basically you need to match the rotor and the caliper to the car. After extensive testing The Brake Man has found that the best match to the car is the kit I am selling. The Brake Man sells 14" rotors with internal heat-sinks and calipers with massive 2" pistons in them. Would these kits be good? No. Because it is too much brake for the car. The idea in choosing what what components is to find the best braking force (read matched to the car) while keeping the smallest (read lightest) rotor.

:lol: :lol: Ive got several sets of cracked rotors, countless race pads worn to the backing plate and melted piston seals to answer your "too much brake for the car" comment.

Look man, you are wrong. These brakes are bling, thats it. People here know much more about brakes from racing experience and engineering experience then you ever will. Even more so than your Bling Ma..I mean Brake Man. Your already weak argument was made even more unconvincing when you admitted that you sell them. Save the marketing drizzle for the s2k drivers and go spam somewhere else.

unlike Jon, I am very willing to flame ;)

Originally posted by Elgorey
:lol: :lol: Ive got several sets of cracked rotors, countless race pads worn to the backing plate and melted piston seals to answer your "too much brake for the car" comment.

Look man, you are wrong. These brakes are bling, thats it. People here know much more about brakes from racing experience and engineering experience then you ever will. Even more so than your Bling Ma..I mean Brake Man. Your already weak argument was made even more unconvincing when you admitted that you sell them. Save the marketing drizzle for the s2k drivers and go spam somewhere else.

unlike Jon, I am very willing to flame ;)

You guys are funny. I must say that I had no idea how many people that think they know so much. No one has refuted what I have to say. My arguments are technically sound. My very first post said I sold them, so what did I "admit". I happen to be an avid car enthusiast having had Everything from a Dakota R/T to a BMW 330Ci. The reason that I have started selling these kits is because I believe in them. My position in my day job is a "Senior Technical Analyst". Before I preach about a product I do all my research. I have done my research on brakes technology. Have you? If you have then I commend you, but you may need to take another look at what you are saying.

So you are saying that there is no such thing as too much brake for a car. You are infact showing that you do not understand braking technology. If you have had problems with your rotors and pads I am sorry. Maybe you should try this kit. I see you are in VA, where are you located?

--------As for you comment Jon, you may think that you are debunking claims, but the fact is that everything that I have said I could back up with a technical answer. You obviously are a technical guy, but your points have not invalidated what I said. As rayder said earlier, "Just because you don't understand it, or have no knowledge of something that may be new to you... doesn't mean it doesn't work, or isn't functional."

I will not argue the technical merit of these brakes any longer. I have posted more then enough reasons why they are superior, if you cannot understand the technical merit of these then I am sorry. You should probably re-read what I have posted. The Brake Man does not make "bling" brake systems for them form follows function. If they were into bling they would make a absolutely HUGE rotor on their kits, like some of the "other" manufacturers do, instead of making a kit that is designed for the car. Which do you think looks more bling, honestly, a gigantic rotor with Bright-Red calipers or the kit I am selling? If it were a marketing thing they would not be charging what they do and making the kits out of the materials that they do. Again form follows function.

Comon now. We are all adults here (although I am beginning to wonder).

I just got back from being at sea for a few weeks, rejoined the "old" i-club, and stumbled across this wonderful thread. Man, I don't even know where to begin! :rolleyes:

Originally posted by AaronC
As for you comment Jon, you may think that you are debunking claims, but the fact is that everything that I have said I could back up with a technical answer.
You could back up your claims with technical answers, but you haven't. Rather than post actual data that would prove your claim that the Brake Man calipers were more rigid than the various monoblock designs out there, you said, "Um if i did produce numbers would you beleive it? Not likely." Wow, there's some really convincing technical data! :rolleyes:

Originally posted by AaronC
I will not argue the technical merit of these brakes any longer. I have posted more then enough reasons why they are superior, if you cannot understand the technical merit of these then I am sorry.
To make a claim and then not back it up with any objective data doesn't prove anything. You've talked a lot about matching the rotors and calipers to the car, as though that were some revolutionary idea. Why do you think Stoptech uses different models of their calipers (with different piston diameters) on different models of cars? Why do you think Baer decided not to market their kit yet because it needed more testing? Etc etc etc...

You've made a few generic brake-tech related statements that IMHO haven't proven a damn thing about why this Brake Man kit is so great. Show us the numbers! As a couple of people have already pointed out, the other manufacturers have already been subjected to a head-to-head shootout by an established, respected magazine. A lot of people here were impressed by the Stoptech kit even before the article was published, and now there's hard data to back up Stoptech's reputation. If you expect people to spend an extra $1000 for your kit you'd better have something better to offer than cliches, un-verified (unverifiable?) claims, and horrible grammar and spelling.

Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan

Welcome back Pat!

k.

Well said Pat.

Reviving this thread. Having came from the S2000 crowd, I've driven this brake setup and I was amazed. I don't know why there were so much bantering going on the posts, but I assume there were no actual field study done? Does anyone actually have this on their Subaru and do you have any comments? I'm looking at all the brake upgrade possibilities, thanx!

Casual,

First of all, AaronC's understanding of braking physics is virtually nil (or was two years ago). He has shown that he doesn't understand the basic theory of how rotor diameter, piston area (regardless of # of pistons), front/rear bias and thermal capacity all conspire to create a specific braking performance. His comments regarding a 14" rotor and 6, 8, or 10 piston calipers show this. In actuality, it would be very simple to design a 10 piston caliper and 14" rotor combination that generates less torque than the stock system.

Another example is his touting the fact that this caliper is the only one in existence that fully retracts the pads and then counters Jon's post by saying they come with residual valves. A residual valve is used to keep the pad IN CONTACT with the rotor. Just another contradiction.

If you are looking to see what braking systems really perfrom well, take a look at the sports car racing teams and what they are using. These will be the brakes that are able to cope with racing temperatures and use. You can assume these would be adequate for aggressive street and track day driving.

Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
www.teamSMR.com

2. Rotor Weight - The StopTech rotors are machined aluminum and not cast iron.


The rotor hats are aluminum, not the actual rotors, the rotors are cast iron. Just wanted to clarify. I have the stoptech BBK as well, I love them on track.

Can we get some raw data shown finally or someone who doesnt work for StopTech (or said company)?

Personally, i would like more to see posts from people who are not sponsored/who do not work for a (brake company)/ working for a (brake seller).

From what i've seen on this board is either we got people who work for companies (or brake sellers) who like boast about products they are selling.
All the post either directly or indirectly bash the other product when it comes to the best.

Data please..... Thanks ^_^

- Ulysses

Useful,

What kind of raw data are you looking for? Any data that you find will most likely come directly from the brake manufacturer unless tested by an independant 3rd party. I don't think that's happened with Brakeman brakes.

Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
www.teamSMR.com

I can state nothing on the quality of the BrakeMan components, but I can say that I was the (or at least one of the) original Moderator on www.s2ki.com when it opened up as s2000online.com, having come from the S2000 forums on www.Honda-Acura.net way back in like '99. They were talked about quite a lot, as with the thread that AaronC pointed out, but members there were as skeptical as the ones here.

In fact, Rick Hesel, one of the guys' favorite vendors--who runs www.ricks2k.com --was one of the only trusted vendors for BrakeMan products. Now, however, I don't see the brakes even listed on his site. Maybe that says something, maybe not.... I'm not involved in the boards anymore, and would have to ask the crowd.

(Rick is the one who got the leather shift boots for the GC Impreza produced for me, during my 2000-2001 group buy.)

-S2-

What kind of raw data are you looking for? Any data that you find will most likely come directly from the brake manufacturer unless tested by an independant 3rd party. I don't think that's happened with Brakeman brakes.

Im just looking for the most simplest answer. What is the distance it stops the car from 60-0 once the brakes are pressed. I know this isnt too technical of an answer. But if car X stops 110 ft using Y brake kit. And another car X stops 105 ft using Z brake kit, you have your answer which is the better brake kit. I guess i want overall "stoppage power". This by no means the kit is better than the other, but at least, there is SOME kind of data.

- Ulysses