Haven't had a chance to run this setup in Solo2 or during a 'day at the track', yet, but from a little test session I found it to be fun with some potential. I'm just going to need to be on my toes.

WL read adj swaybar-set to 24mm, WL ALK, and BFG KDW's (225/50/16) @ 44psi. on stock rims.

My short test resulted in quite a bit of drift when I let off of the throttle, but it was easy to regain control once throttle was re-applied.

Anyone have any experience with similiar, or just an opinion?

Thanks,

Pat

What car? It matters. First, your tire pressure is too high, IMHO. 44 psi must ride like crap. I would start at something like 37 psi (for street driving) and work my way down from there.

You're also getting oversteer because you have too much rear bar. 22 would be better, 20 closer to neutral.

It depends on how you want to set the car up. I prefer neutral, so that I can make it do what I want, rather than built-in over or understeer.

Kevin

Yeah, your drifting becuase the rear swaybar is set at 24mm. Mine is only set at 20mm and I get some oversteer with the re92's. Put it at 22mm and see how it is. Adjust it to your liking. Also, if you got a bigger front swaybar, there would be a bit more understeer to cope(sp?) with the oversteer.

Thanks fellas,

I've got a wagon 02 WRX.

I'll look again, but I thought that tire pressure on the KDW's was supposed to be 44. I'm probably a numbskull.

A sedan friend of mine (actually a few of them) is offering me their front swaybars.

Thanks for your input.

Pat

I have a sedan so I don't know but isn't the front bar the same in the wagon and sedan? I know the rear is smaller.

Also I don't think the front bar will work going from sedan to wagon.

p@
www.achtuning.com

Pat,

I agree with Kevin, 44psi seems awful high. Taking a look at Tire Rack's specs it appears that 44psi is the max pressure (the number on the sidewall, right?). That number on the sidewall is most definitely not the recommended pressure. Kevin's suggestion of 37psi is probably pretty good, I would imagine somewhere in the 35-37psi range is where you want to be.

As for the rear swaybar, in my opinion 20mm isn't enough. I base that on two track days in my sister's WRX wagon. Even with the sedan 20mm rear bar installed the car understeered like a pig, and even dropping the throttle mid-corner didn't do much to rotate the car. And that was with rear tire pressures set 4-6# higher than the fronts to try to balance the car. So, I would say 22mm is probably a good, safe place to start. I know on my car I actually broke one of my rear swaybar endlinks by driving on my stock suspension with my Whiteline bar maxed out :eek: , so trying 24mm might be a bad idea if you're really pushing the car.

Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan

Drop the tire pressure to 39psi and have fun.

Thanks Pat,

On my list of todo (added to change my oil) is lower air pressure and put the RSB back to 22.

I know if I left it the way it was, I'd most likely have some hard learning.

It's good to have another guru here on the island.

Pat

all these tire pressure numbers are from a general attitude, so you really need to tailor it to the specific event via shoe polish/chalk whatever to mark your tires and see how far you are coming over on the sidewall. Mark a few times across the sidewall to the tread and try to maximize your tread.

Ron

Great idea.

Thanks much.

I'll do that.

Pat

Originally posted by Akiata
Also I don't think the front bar will work going from sedan to wagon.

p@
www.achtuning.com

I've got the 22mm Whiteline front swaybar on my 02 WRX wagon. It fits just fine.

Swapping front wagon sways for sedans won't work- different bar (where it attaches to link), besides they are the same dia 20-20.

A couple of thoughts- tire pressure- this will vary based on your needs- autox, track, street. You will need to experiment (for example I run close to 5lbs higher when autoxing). I think it is worth trying higher front pressure vs rear (for example I run 39.5 front/ 37.5 rear autox- T1S tire). Also get an alignment, one of the cheapest bang for your buck mods. Increase front camber from oe setting (-0.25) to -1.0- -1.4 (this can be accomplished w/ oe camber bolt). Rear camber is unadjustable (w/o bolts/plates0 and should be in the -1.3 range. I run 0 toe front/rear, if you have specific needs you can adjust toe front and rear.

Also experiment w/ your sway bar (slowly, under controlled settings ie safe). You can run "inbetween" settings, ie 22, 22.5, 23, 23.5, 24- by using one hole on one side and another on the other.

Big Sky

Big Sky,

Great advice.

I love to tinker around with different settings.

BTW, I put new 225/50/16 KDW's on the stock rims about 1 month and a half ago. When I went to check my pressure after reading this, all 4 tires were down to 32. I don't believe that they all, in synchronization, lost 12 lbs. I think that Sears filled them to what they thought they should be.

Maybe that, along with the 24 mm in the rear, and the ALK are what were the cause of my drift-o-matic setup.

Hmmm.

Pat

The poster above who mentions camber/caster settings has the right idea, methinks. On my stock '03 WRX (except for 18x7.5 Prodrive P1s wrapped with Yokohama AVS Sports) at the Streets of Willow (in Rosamond, CA) the biggest problem I had was, of course, tremendous understeer.

Now, I know that there are a number of ways to go about fixing any one problem, but ponder this:

On a properly set-up car, the Yokohamas (as per their track/race guru) should read about 190-degrees on the inside edge, then evenly spead down to about 180-degrees on the outside edge. Tire pressure should be raised or lowered as needed to reach these (optimum) operating temperatures.

Now, at the track, I was getting 180-degrees on the _outside_ edge of the front tires while the insides were reading at or below 150-degrees. That right there tells you there's a definate camber issue and that anything else you do is just dancing around the problem. This needs to be addressed first and foremost. Then, maybe, the car will _rotate_ and turn as it should.

As a side note the rear temps were indicative of a _decent_ set-up, but still need another (negative) 0.5 degree or so.

I understand that the "hot" set up is camber at -2.5 degrees up front, -2.0 in the rear and toe out front and rear at 1/8 inch. This is a far cry from the stock set-up as (correctly) alluded to by the poster above.

--BA

Tire temps are great to help setup a car. Ideally three temps (inner, middle, outer) are taken. "Ideal" camber should be reading temps equal outer and inner. "Ideal" temps should show the center temps should be equal to the average of the outer/inner. A pyrometer is on my must have list this spring.

Big Sky

Originally posted by gpatmac
Haven't had a chance to run this setup in Solo2 or during a 'day at the track', yet, but from a little test session I found it to be fun with some potential. I'm just going to need to be on my toes.

WL read adj swaybar-set to 24mm, WL ALK, and BFG KDW's (225/50/16) @ 44psi. on stock rims.

My short test resulted in quite a bit of drift when I let off of the throttle, but it was easy to regain control once throttle was re-applied.

Anyone have any experience with similiar, or just an opinion?

Thanks,

Pat

ummm.... yeah, it's a fun setup. I run a similar setup when not running the good suspension. I did an autocross with this setup with a 5 cone slalom. You entered the slalom by steering the car passed the first cone. By the 3rd cone, your counter steering through the slalom as the weight transfer builds momentum leading to snap oversteer as you "navigate" past each cone....

Fun, but not very fast....:D

BTW: your ALK kit is illegal for SM, STX, ESP and stock of course. If your not that good, have fun. But if you decide to participate in a season trophy run, I would recommend switching to camber/caster plates instead.

ChrisW:

What about camber plates up front with a sway bar out back, set relatively light (softest of three settings -- 20?). Think that should take care of understeer and allow me to dial in oversteer without making the car unstable?

Note: my use is road courses -- not AutoX -- so being tail-happy is not the goal here. Control is.

--BA

Originally posted by Almost_Stock
ChrisW:

What about camber plates up front with a sway bar out back, set relatively light (softest of three settings -- 20?). Think that should take care of understeer and allow me to dial in oversteer without making the car unstable?

Note: my use is road courses -- not AutoX -- so being tail-happy is not the goal here. Control is.

--BA

Additional negative camber up front will help. Sway bar settings have to be tested (start w/ 20mm and work up- if necessary).

Big Sky

poersonally i would rate your setup as darn right dangerous

way way to much sway bar for the stock suspension

you will get a snap throttle lift over steer

Pat,

Oversteer can be a dangerous thing when you are not ready to deal with it. Work you way up to more oversteer and become comfortable with what happens and what to do when you rear starts to break traction. It can happen very quickly (personal experience).

Tim

I already put the rsb on 22. I just haven't been back to my 'secret doughnut area' yet, or had a chance to do the next soloII.

Maybe today I will.

Pat

Originally posted by Almost_Stock
ChrisW:

What about camber plates up front with a sway bar out back, set relatively light (softest of three settings -- 20?). Think that should take care of understeer and allow me to dial in oversteer without making the car unstable?

Note: my use is road courses -- not AutoX -- so being tail-happy is not the goal here. Control is.

--BA

With my current setup I have stock struts, MRT camber/caster plates, whiteline swaybars 22F/22-24R rear is on stiffest setting.

That setup produced the results from my last post :) The instability problem could be traced to using the stock struts and expecting them to compare to my DMS50s that I am used to...

Yes, camber plates will help. What you really need to control the understeer, is more camber in the front.

Oh, yeah. I could be wrong, but indicators point to coil-overs potentially being part of Christmas. I know that if my wife (who usually gives me such a hard time about my purchases) were to have bought them, they'd probably be the Tein Wagon's. So, no dampening, but still better control than stock.

I'll get back to you in a few days. ;)

Originally posted by Almost_Stock
I understand that the "hot" set up is camber at -2.5 degrees up front, -2.0 in the rear and toe out front and rear at 1/8 inch. This is a far cry from the stock set-up as (correctly) alluded to by the poster above.
I think Pat is looking mostly for a street-able setup that will do well auto-xing and open tracking on rare occasions. With that in mind, those kinds of camber numbers aren't realistic - he'd be replacing tires every couple of months. :)

I'm sure you already know that, BA, just clarifying...

Pat

Pat,

I am, but I will keep those numbers in mind. Thanks Almost_Stock.

One thing I think I should mention, I've seen Tim and Pat (Olsen) drive. I'm not in that class, yet. I would be smartest to start conservative and work my way up. Unfortunately, I have to remind myself that during daily driving (off/on ramps, entry into my neighborhood) how well I drive and how the car handles are much different than during AutoX and track days. My fear is that I start to feel that I'm a supergreat racer based on daily driving, and then end up overconfident at the track (won't happen, I guarantee. I'm too much of a puss).

It would seem that in order to really know and test your car and really know your driving ability, you'd have to drive it like you stole it a lot more often. I refuse to drive like that on the highway and around neighborhoods (well ok, but not that often.)

hahaha! hey pat wheres this secret donut spot? I got a sedan rsb on my car with KB links in the rear. Front links will go on same time as brakes (god knows when that will happen). Front tire pressure is at 34 and the rear is 36. See yah around

Ralph my friend,

Now if I told you, it wouldn't be a secret, would it? ;)

If you could get on Wheeler, I'd show you.

Pat

True...

Ralph, Pat, or Tim,

If any of y'all want to come up here to Wheeler, I'll take you over to where I tune and generally test. I would have to imagine that it's frowned upon, but in my mind, it's much safer than the highway. It's about 1/4 long and there's a pad mid-strip for checking suspension stuffs.

Anyhow, question for whomever; like I said in an earlier post; I think Kathy is getting me coilovers. I'd suspect that they were the Tein's because 1) They say they're specifically for the wagon, and 2) There aren't too many to select from besides Tein here on the island.

Are the Tein Wagon's necessarily my only choice for my grocery getter? Are they going to be the easiest 'bolt-on' due to specific design? What am I giving up/gaining with the 'wagons'? I know they lack pillowballs/dampening control, but beyond that, I see no real difference.

Gracias

I wouldnt say that Tein's are necessarily your only choice as there lots of people that are running sedan set-ups on wagons. I'm gonna try out the type-flex's and see how they are. I'm not even sure if I need that much dampering or height adjustment but when I ordered I did want something that I could mess around with.

The wagon set-up should be easy to install. The only other differences that I can see are the spring rates and body housing material. I think that all of Tein's product line with the exception to the flex's are prone to corrode near the perches. Dont know if it will matter here, cause I think it was more for the people driving in snow but I could be wrong. Damn it I'm babbling again.

HTH

Dude,

Anyone's advice is welcome, especially someone more seasoned than myself, which you definitely are.

Pat

Dont forget that there are no top mounts with the wagon kit. Thats more money out of your pocket if you really want a solid suspension.

False alarm. She got me a bigassed craftsman toolbox.

Ironic thing is, such a big toolbox for a big, no-skills knucklehead such as myself.

I am going to get some Tein's someday, though. Probably Wagon or Flex. Just not as soon as I thought.

Pat

Pat,

Will have to take you up on your offer one day to check out the secret training grounds at Wheeler. I used to live up there, so I think I know where you are talking about. ;)

I'm really happy with the STi suspension, but I'd really like to check out a wagon with a Tein setup sometime. Perhaps on your Birthday? :)

I'm pretty much done with suspension at this point other then a rear strut bar (probably Cusco). The adjustable STi setup sounds interesting, but beyond my $$ right now.

Originally posted by mehlt
I'm really happy with the STi suspension, but I'd really like to check out a wagon with a Tein setup sometime. Perhaps on your Birthday? :)

The adjustable STi setup sounds interesting, but beyond my $$ right now.

Tim,

I'd love to check out a wagon with a Tein setup...mine, of course, but I'm not holding my breath. By the time I when I might be able to afford that, I should be a brand new daddy.

I haven't heard anything on the adj STI setup. Definitely sounds interesting.

Pat

Hey pat, I should be getting my set-up any time soon... We can try it out if that secret spot of your is available. :)

No problem.

Email me at gpatmac@hotmail.com when you do.

Originally posted by mehlt
The adjustable STi setup sounds interesting, but beyond my $$ right now.

Tim,

Good to see you and yours out at the track. You're little boy was eating that stuff up. :)

Hey, could you point me in the right direction for shopping for the adjustable setup you're referring to? Is it available? I haven't seen anything on it.

Pat

I think that www.japanparts.com has them on the site...

Man, they got everything.

Pat,

Some places to check:

www.rallispec.com
www.avsport.com

You may also want to check out this thread:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=279322

Muchas Gracias