Let's armchair QB the air marshals now! Yay!
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Let's armchair QB the air marshals now! Yay!
http://www.comcast.net/news/index.js...09/280409.html
People are never happy. And by the time anything could have been done to make everyone happy it's already too late.
This article is laughable. The only argument is that a couple passengers do not remember the disgruntled passenger saying "bomb" as he reached into at gun point. The articles tells us how the disgruntled passenger acts from eye witnesses on the ground and in the air:
So let me get this straight...
-What the Marshals didn't see: He was very uneasy and appeared desperate prior to getting on the plane and was also singing "Go Down Moses."
-What the Marshals did know: That he wanted to get off the plane and even ran frantically down the aisles.
-Bad move by wife and victim: He wasn't on his ****ing medication when he was obviously petrified of flying! Get a train ticket you crazy bastard.
-Icing on the cake: The disgruntled passenger reaches into his bag at gun point!
It makes no difference if the man said bomb or not at that point! The Marshals did the right thing IMHO.
People are never happy. And by the time anything could have been done to make everyone happy it's already too late.
This article is laughable. The only argument is that a couple passengers do not remember the disgruntled passenger saying "bomb" as he reached into at gun point. The articles tells us how the disgruntled passenger acts from eye witnesses on the ground and in the air:
MIAMI - The airline passenger shot to death by federal marshals who said he made a bomb threat was agitated even before boarding and later appeared to be desperate to get off the plane, some fellow travelers said.
One passenger said he "absolutely never heard the word 'bomb' at all" during the uproar as the Orlando-bound flight prepared to leave Miami on Wednesday.
Federal officials say Rigoberto Alpizar made the threat in the jetway, after running up the plane's aisle from his seat at the back of the jetliner. They opened fire because the 44-year-old Home Depot employee ignored their orders to stop, reached into his backpack and said he had a bomb, according to authorities.
Alpizar's brother, speaking from Costa Rica, said he would never believe the shooting was necessary.
[blah blah blah]"I can't conceive that the marshals wouldn't be able to overpower an unarmed, single man, especially knowing he had already cleared every security check," Carlos Alpizar told The Orlando Sentinel.[/blah blah blah]
Some passengers said they noticed Alpizar while waiting to get on the plane. They said he was singing "Go Down Moses" as his wife tried to calm him. Others said they saw him having lunch and described him as restless and anxious, but not dangerous.
"The wife was telling him, 'Calm down. Let other people get on the plane. It will be all right,'" said Alan Tirpak, a passenger.
Some passengers, including John McAlhany, said they believe Alpizar was no threat to anyone.
McAlhany, a 44-year-old construction worker who was returning home from a fishing trip in Key West, said he was sitting in Seat 21C when he noticed a commotion a few rows back.
"I heard him saying to his wife, 'I've got to get off the plane,'" McAlhany said. "He bumped me, bumped a couple of stewardesses. He just wanted to get off the plane."
Alpizar ran up the aisle into the first-class cabin, where marshals chased him onto the jetway, McAlhany said.
McAlhany said he "absolutely never heard the word 'bomb' at all."
"The first time I heard the word 'bomb' was when I was interviewed by the FBI," McAlhany said. "They kept asking if I heard him say the B-word. And I said, 'What is the B-word?' And they were like, 'Bomb.' I said no. They said, 'Are you sure?' And I am."
Added another passenger, Mary Gardner: "I did not hear him say that he had a bomb."
Officials say there was no bomb and they found no connection to terrorism.
Witnesses said Alpizar's wife, Anne Buechner, had frantically tried to explain he was bipolar, a mental illness also known as manic-depression, and was off his medication.
The National Alliance on Mental Illness called on the Air Marshal Service and other law enforcement agencies to train officers if they don't already in responding to people with severe mental illness.
Others said Alpizar's mental health didn't matter while marshals were trying to talk to him and determine if the threat was real.
Shooting to maim or injure _ rather than kill _ is not an option for federal agents, said John Amat, national operations vice president of the Federal Law Enforcement Officers Association, which includes air marshals in its membership.
"The person was screaming, saying he would blow up the plane, reaching into his bag _ they had to react," Amat said.
"The bottom line is, we're trained to shoot to stop the threat," said Amat, who is also a deputy with the U.S. Marshals Service in Miami. "Hollywood has this perception that we are such marksmen we can shoot an arm or leg with accuracy. We can't. These guys were in a very tense situation. In their minds they had to believe this person was an imminent threat to themselves or the people on the plane."
White House spokesman Scott McClellan said the two air marshals appeared to have acted properly when they shot to kill.
Both air marshals were hired in 2002 from other federal law enforcement agencies and were placed on administrative leave, said Brian Doyle, spokesman for the U.S. Department of Homeland Security.
Miami-Dade Police were investigating and the medical examiner's office was performing an autopsy on Alpizar, who was from Costa Rica but became a U.S. citizen years ago. He lived in Maitland, an Orlando suburb.
Neighbors said the couple had been returning to their home from a missionary trip to Ecuador. Buechner works for the Council on Quality and Leadership based in Towson, Md., a nonprofit organization focused on improving life for people with disabilities and mental illness, the organization said in a statement.
David Stempler, president of the Air Travelers Association, said he thinks the shooting may prove more "reassuring than disturbing" to the traveling public his organization represents. "This is a reminder they are there and are protecting the passengers and that it is a seriously deadly business," he said.
Armed police boarded the aircraft after the shooting, with some passengers in hysterics. McAlhany said he remembers having a shotgun pressed into his head by one officer, and hearing cries and screams from many passengers aboard the aircraft after the shooting in the jetway.
"This was wrong," McAlhany said. "This man should be with his family for Christmas. Now he's dead."
One passenger said he "absolutely never heard the word 'bomb' at all" during the uproar as the Orlando-bound flight prepared to leave Miami on Wednesday.
Federal officials say Rigoberto Alpizar made the threat in the jetway, after running up the plane's aisle from his seat at the back of the jetliner. They opened fire because the 44-year-old Home Depot employee ignored their orders to stop, reached into his backpack and said he had a bomb, according to authorities.
Alpizar's brother, speaking from Costa Rica, said he would never believe the shooting was necessary.
[blah blah blah]"I can't conceive that the marshals wouldn't be able to overpower an unarmed, single man, especially knowing he had already cleared every security check," Carlos Alpizar told The Orlando Sentinel.[/blah blah blah]
Some passengers said they noticed Alpizar while waiting to get on the plane. They said he was singing "Go Down Moses" as his wife tried to calm him. Others said they saw him having lunch and described him as restless and anxious, but not dangerous.
"The wife was telling him, 'Calm down. Let other people get on the plane. It will be all right,'" said Alan Tirpak, a passenger.
Some passengers, including John McAlhany, said they believe Alpizar was no threat to anyone.
McAlhany, a 44-year-old construction worker who was returning home from a fishing trip in Key West, said he was sitting in Seat 21C when he noticed a commotion a few rows back.
"I heard him saying to his wife, 'I've got to get off the plane,'" McAlhany said. "He bumped me, bumped a couple of stewardesses. He just wanted to get off the plane."
Alpizar ran up the aisle into the first-class cabin, where marshals chased him onto the jetway, McAlhany said.
McAlhany said he "absolutely never heard the word 'bomb' at all."
"The first time I heard the word 'bomb' was when I was interviewed by the FBI," McAlhany said. "They kept asking if I heard him say the B-word. And I said, 'What is the B-word?' And they were like, 'Bomb.' I said no. They said, 'Are you sure?' And I am."
Added another passenger, Mary Gardner: "I did not hear him say that he had a bomb."
Officials say there was no bomb and they found no connection to terrorism.
Witnesses said Alpizar's wife, Anne Buechner, had frantically tried to explain he was bipolar, a mental illness also known as manic-depression, and was off his medication.
The National Alliance on Mental Illness called on the Air Marshal Service and other law enforcement agencies to train officers if they don't already in responding to people with severe mental illness.
Others said Alpizar's mental health didn't matter while marshals were trying to talk to him and determine if the threat was real.
Shooting to maim or injure _ rather than kill _ is not an option for federal agents, said John Amat, national operations vice president of the Federal Law Enforcement Officers Association, which includes air marshals in its membership.
"The person was screaming, saying he would blow up the plane, reaching into his bag _ they had to react," Amat said.
"The bottom line is, we're trained to shoot to stop the threat," said Amat, who is also a deputy with the U.S. Marshals Service in Miami. "Hollywood has this perception that we are such marksmen we can shoot an arm or leg with accuracy. We can't. These guys were in a very tense situation. In their minds they had to believe this person was an imminent threat to themselves or the people on the plane."
White House spokesman Scott McClellan said the two air marshals appeared to have acted properly when they shot to kill.
Both air marshals were hired in 2002 from other federal law enforcement agencies and were placed on administrative leave, said Brian Doyle, spokesman for the U.S. Department of Homeland Security.
Miami-Dade Police were investigating and the medical examiner's office was performing an autopsy on Alpizar, who was from Costa Rica but became a U.S. citizen years ago. He lived in Maitland, an Orlando suburb.
Neighbors said the couple had been returning to their home from a missionary trip to Ecuador. Buechner works for the Council on Quality and Leadership based in Towson, Md., a nonprofit organization focused on improving life for people with disabilities and mental illness, the organization said in a statement.
David Stempler, president of the Air Travelers Association, said he thinks the shooting may prove more "reassuring than disturbing" to the traveling public his organization represents. "This is a reminder they are there and are protecting the passengers and that it is a seriously deadly business," he said.
Armed police boarded the aircraft after the shooting, with some passengers in hysterics. McAlhany said he remembers having a shotgun pressed into his head by one officer, and hearing cries and screams from many passengers aboard the aircraft after the shooting in the jetway.
"This was wrong," McAlhany said. "This man should be with his family for Christmas. Now he's dead."
-What the Marshals didn't see: He was very uneasy and appeared desperate prior to getting on the plane and was also singing "Go Down Moses."
-What the Marshals did know: That he wanted to get off the plane and even ran frantically down the aisles.
-Bad move by wife and victim: He wasn't on his ****ing medication when he was obviously petrified of flying! Get a train ticket you crazy bastard.
-Icing on the cake: The disgruntled passenger reaches into his bag at gun point!
It makes no difference if the man said bomb or not at that point! The Marshals did the right thing IMHO.
Last edited by Salty; Dec 9, 2005 at 10:18 AM.
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Originally Posted by Salty
It makes no difference if the man said bomb or not at that point! The Marshals did the right thing IMHO.
I agree, they followed protocol exactly. People are going to try to find someone other than the victim to blame, but really it's just a very sad situation where a mentaly unstable individual should have taken his Dr's recomendation and taken his meds.
Even though it was the guy's fault, I still feel really bad for the wife...she had to watch her husband get gunned down and she was trying to stop the whole thing...that'd be hard to deal with.
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Originally Posted by pbchief2
I agree with everything but the train ticket
Impossible from Costa Rica.
Impossible from Costa Rica.
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Originally Posted by MVWRX
I agree, they followed protocol exactly. People are going to try to find someone other than the victim to blame, but really it's just a very sad situation where a mentaly unstable individual should have taken his Dr's recomendation and taken his meds.
Even though it was the guy's fault, I still feel really bad for the wife...she had to watch her husband get gunned down and she was trying to stop the whole thing...that'd be hard to deal with.
Even though it was the guy's fault, I still feel really bad for the wife...she had to watch her husband get gunned down and she was trying to stop the whole thing...that'd be hard to deal with.
whether he said "bomb" or not it sounds like a clean shooting......very sad though, the wife had to see that.
Note to self: the air marshals don't mess around, when at gun point, follow orders.
Note to self: the air marshals don't mess around, when at gun point, follow orders.
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It's a crappy situation. The air marshalls did what they were supposed to do in that situation. Can't blame them for that.
I will be interested to hear in the upcoming days though about the whole medication issue because I heard on the radio this morning into work that the couple had their bags stolen in Costa Rica which contained his medication. I do feel really bad for the wife though....Very sad story, but I don't think you can even come close to putting this on the air marshals....
I will be interested to hear in the upcoming days though about the whole medication issue because I heard on the radio this morning into work that the couple had their bags stolen in Costa Rica which contained his medication. I do feel really bad for the wife though....Very sad story, but I don't think you can even come close to putting this on the air marshals....
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Just like when you get pulled over. You don't go reaching around on the floorboard or glove box when the officer is telling you to keep your hands where he can see them.
Disobey a person at gunpoint and you get shot. It's the way it works because that's the best way to keep everyone else safe.
Disobey a person at gunpoint and you get shot. It's the way it works because that's the best way to keep everyone else safe.
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I agree that the air marshalls did the right job. Although I do feel bad for the guy's wife I think it's crap when people complain about something like this. If they shoot the guy people say he didnt need to get shot, and if the don't shoot him and he does blow up the plane people ***** about it....tough decision, but I thin they made the right one.
I think it's funny how the guy in seat 21C said he didn't hear the word "bomb." This doesn't surprise me, how would you hear Alpizar if he was already off the plane? (assuming that's when he said the word) The walls in jetways are pretty thick, in otherwords they absorb quite a bit of sound. I'm not surprised he didn't hear anything seeing as how far away he was. I think he's just trying to pin this on the air marshals.
Originally Posted by Oaf
Doesn't this sound like the Brazilian dude that got smoked in London a few month's back?
Errr, no totally different situation. In London the police was in the wrong, here not at all. Go read up on that situation before you make such blind comments.
All the air marshals did was their job. If they were paid to stop, talk about the situation for 30 minutes, have a group hug and then act we'd all be ****ed. Hindsight is 20/20 and regardless of what you guys think air marshals/soldiers/policemen are all paid to use their instincts. Granted they are trained to ensure (to the highest degree possible) that their instincts are as legitmate as possible but no human is fail proof. They could only analyze the situation based on what was at hand and that's what they did.
Seriously, if you were an air marshal what would you have done? A guy running around IN AN AIRPORT with a back pack screaming something about a bomb like a mad man. I don't think it takes to much thought to understand why they did what they did.
Seriously, if you were an air marshal what would you have done? A guy running around IN AN AIRPORT with a back pack screaming something about a bomb like a mad man. I don't think it takes to much thought to understand why they did what they did.
Last edited by 1reguL8NSTi; Dec 12, 2005 at 08:25 AM.
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Originally Posted by Unregistered
Errr, no totally different situation. In London the police was in the wrong, here not at all. Go read up on that situation before you make such blind comments.


