Family mourn for Brazilian victim
Relatives and friends of Jean Charles de Menezes, the Brazilian man shot by police in London, have expressed their grief, shock and anger at the killing.
His London-based cousin, Alex Pereira, paid tribute to him but sharply criticised authorities for the error.

His grandmother said there was no reason for considering him a terrorist.

The 27-year-old was fatally shot after boarding a train at Stockwell underground station on Friday, a day after failed attacks on the network.

Climate of terror

The BBC's Steve Kingstone in Sao Paulo says there has been a lot of sympathy for London in Brazil over the bombings, together with an understanding of the need for tough police action.


He was the grandson that I always carried inside my heart, and I am terribly sad about what happened
Zilda Ambrosia de Figueiredo
But Brazilians are also strongly opposed to the Iraq war and there is still a lot of anger about the US invasion, he says.

They will be also be asking why someone lying on the floor and apparently offering no resistance was shot, according to eyewitnesses, five times in the head.

Our correspondent says the Brazilian government, while obviously sensitive to the broader climate of terror, is under pressure from its people to deliver answers.

It said in a statement it was shocked and perplexed, and expected a full explanation from the UK authorities.

'Full of life'

Details have been emerging about Mr Menezes - an apparently law-abiding citizen who was well-liked and as concerned as other Londoners about the bomb attacks.


Mr Pereira said his cousin was the son of a bricklayer and grew up in the city of Gonzaga in Minas Gerais state, a source of many migrants to Europe and the US.

He moved to Sao Paulo to live with his uncle at the age of 14, attended high school and became a qualified electrician.


He had lived and worked in London legally for at least three years and spoke excellent English.

The cousin described him as a "person full of life", adding that he was "a victim of government's mistakes."

"They had to kill someone to show the whole population they are working and make the country safe," he told the BBC.

"He does not have a past that would make him run from police," he added in an interview for Brazilian TV.

But the BBC's Tom Gibb in Brazil said Mr Menezes' experience of Sao Paulo's slum areas meant that he might - on the contrary - have run in reaction to having a gun pulled on him.

His grandmother, Zilda Ambrosia de Figueiredo, offered perhaps the most touching tribute.

She told Globo TV: "He was very easy going and very communicative with everyone."

"He was the grandson that I always carried inside my heart. And I am terribly sad about what happened."

Motorbike

Gésio César D'avila, a friend and colleague, said Mr Menezes had considered alternative transport after the failed attacks on 21 July.

"We were together on Thursday, and when we saw what happened, Jean said he wanted to buy a motorbike to avoid the tube," he said.

On Friday Mr Menezes had come out of his flat in Tulse Hill, south London, which he shared with cousins Vivian and Patricia.

He was thought to be on his way to fit a fire alarm.

The house had been under police surveillance because of a suspected link to Thursday's attempted bombings.

Police followed him as he caught a bus to Stockwell tube station.

They said Mr Menezes' apparently bulky clothing added to their suspicions. Some Brazilians find even summer weather in the UK cold and often dress warmly.

But cousin Patricia Armani said she did not remember him wearing a padded jacket.

"He didn't use to feel cold. In the winter he even walked on the street with T-shirt," she told the BBC Brasil.com



this just blows, and before anyone opens their bigh ****ing mouths, having been to sao paulo, and other slummy areas of brasil there is one thing that you do when a gun is pulled (no matter if by a favela kid, or the police)

YOU RUN LIKE HELL!!!!!

and yes 70 degree weather is cold as hell for a brasilian..

I love how this story gets the views of the Brazilian people regarding Iraq, etc.

Listen, your ****ing son ran from the bobbies wearing a heavy jacket. He wasn't just running down the London streets. He ran into the subway station and onto a subway car for crying out loud:

The man shot Friday at the Stockwell subway station was identified as Jean Charles de Menezes, 27. Witnesses said he was wearing a heavy, padded coat when plainclothes police chased him into a subway car, pinned him to the ground and shot him five times in the head and torso in front of horrified passengers.

"This is a tragedy," Blair said Sunday of the shooting. "The Metropolitan Police accepts full responsibility for this. To the family I can only express my deep regrets."

He also defended the shoot-to-kill policy, saying such action only applied when lives were believed to be at risk.

"I am very aware that minority communities are talking about a shoot-to-kill policy," he said. "It's only a shoot-to-kill-in-order-to-protect policy."

You can't have it both ways, Dre. All that's on the bobbies mind is to get rind of any opportunity to detonate any possible device under that heavy coat. Just sucks that it wasn't a real terrorist. Had it been an actual terrorist who detonated the device you would have started a threat on how they failed.

Also, being a San Paulo resident holds no water when you're in Rome. You don't flash religious articles in Vietnam, you don't denounce Islam in Saudi Arabia, you empty your pockets in your Singaporean hotel for fear of littering the streets by accident, you don't travel on the opposite side in Tokyo or you'll be trampled, you pay your cab fare in New York, and you do not run from the cops toward the subway days after the subway attacks wearing a heavy jacket when you have a slight resemblance to past terrorists.

This guy killed himself for being a dumb ass. Period. If it wasn't for the outrage of many I’d personally give these bobbies a medal for acting fast and diligently.

he didnt run from bobby's he ran from plain clothed men with guns...

BIG DIFFERENCE!!!!

dude i can honestly say rome DOESNT HOLD A ****ING CANDLE TO SAO PAULO, RIO, OR ANY OTHER MAJOR BRASILIAN CITY.

i have personaly been involved in 4 assaults while i was down there.. all 4 times guns were thrown in my face, once they shot 5 rounds into our BULLET PROOF HONDA CIVIC..

so dont give me that rome bull**** bro...

as for your line of thought..

you take a jungle cat out of the jungle and put him in the city he is still going to act in the same ways...

And i DO blame the bobbys, they ****ed the pooch on this big time.. they screwed up, and now they have to face the music. AN INNOCENT MAN LOST HIS LIFE, no matter if he ran, jumped, screamed, kicked, etc.. Shooting a man 5times in the head after you tackled him (AN INNOCENT MAN) is bull****..

What if he had a dead man switch? What then.. those actions would have caused the detonation of said invisible bomb.. what then?

in those situations you have to make split second judgement calls.. they made the wrong one..

plain and simple.. now they have to face the music like men.. and that music aint going to be pretty..

First of all your little comparisons to San Paulo are null and void based on the fact Jean lived in London for 3yrs (search)! I've seen foreigners learn English within a year of being in country. It’s an asinine argument to not be able to adapt within weeks or months.

And don't act like you know about explosives because you don't. I don't care how much you've read-up on them you don't know ****. Not only do I have textbook knowledge of explosives but i've had direct training from master EOD technicians and Sappers on three weekend long occasions. I've even been cross trained on numerous occasions by those Sappers I had linked to my teams. I know a lot about basic charges and how to make them/use them. But when it comes to complex munitions I don't know how to make all the bells and whistles come together in the slightest.
But thinking you know about how to handle, apply and actually prep a bomb (let alone on a "dead man switch") is laughable. What if, what if, what if... Try and get some first hand experience before you go flapping your jaws. Contrary to popular belief, you don't know everything! You don't seem me going off about how to hack a computer, do you? :rolleyes:

Furthermore, why aren't you ever willing to put yourself in the shoes of the bobbies and innocent people on the train? It's always some asinine argument you present based on an absolute without ever taking into consideration the given factors. Guess what?! The days of impartiality are long gone! You can thank Islamic extremists for your walk-on eggshells society we currently live in. Factors like the bobbies fear, the fact they could die and leave behind bastard children and widowed wives, the fact that if this guy managed to get the supposed bomb detonated it would have killed tons of people. If I saw this guy as one of the bobbies I would have ripped out his still-beating hard if it meant elliminating the possibility that he could be a bomber.

The London PD had intelligence to monitor his building because they thought it was a direct link to the bombers. Then add in the fact he was wearing a thick jacket and headed towards the subway. Then the guy ran from plainly-dressed bobbies and did so without even batting an eye or questioning the gunmen’s motives! Who does this unless you're in hot water or owe money to the mob?! Although the bobbies regret what happened, there's no need to take it beyond that. Accidents do happen and this is one of those unfortunate events. He’s a casualty of delicate times.

"He had lived and worked in London legally for at least three years and spoke excellent English."

Ah, dre, you never disappoint.
You blame everyone but Jean Charles de Menezes for his death.
Tensions are high in England, especially London, & people need to remove their heads from their arses.

All he had to do was obey the police & stop running.

Don't give a **** if he grew up in the slummiest part of Sao Paulo, he was in England.
And in England there are no roving bands of murderous cyclohexane-huffing orphans for the late Jean Charles de Menezes to run from.

So, dre, how should the Special Services (not regular Bobbies) have handled Mr. Menezes?

Exactly my point. Thank you, Paul.

http://www.newcriminologist.co.uk/uploads/menezes%20(bbc).jpg

nice she lived in london.. i have lived in SAO PAULO

salty, you just dont understand do you...

im not presenting EXCUSES, im presenting you a VIEW into the guys head (for as much as i can).

Mind showing me where he ran from uniformed bobbys? Cause all i have seen his he ran from plain clothed agents (most likely MI5).

as for explsovies.. i know much more then the common man, may not be an EOD tech but dotn kid your self im not some dumbass who thinks explosions are like they are in hollywood. i love it when you assume things man.. it makes me laugh..

fact of the matter is this..

Aggresive police force + Innocent ALARM INSTALLER with a SAO PAULO background = innocent man getting shot..


Dude was a fire alarm installer, he reportedly had finished installing a fire alarm in said house and was heading to another job. MI5 agents were watching the house (or london popo) and tracked him in a large jacket (he is brasilian 70 is cold for us) heading to the subway (to go to his next job). The cops most likely tried to intercept him, thus scaring the crap out of him as 5 armed gunmen running at you waving guns might do. Flight instinct kicked in and the race was on..

i dont think there could have been any worse of a situation for the poor guy and the cops involved.

And you bet your ass im not going to sit there and have a casual conversation with 5 men who point guns at me screaming and yelling.. IM ****ING GONE!

you would be stupid not to run if you ask me, unless of course they present you some form of ID immediatly (hence the whole "freeze this is the POLICE", and of course the PURPOSE OF A UNIFORM).

"He had lived and worked in London legally for at least three years and spoke excellent English."

Ah, dre, you never disappoint.
You blame everyone but Jean Charles de Menezes for his death.
Tensions are high in England, especially London, & people need to remove their heads from their arses.

All he had to do was obey the police & stop running.

Don't give a **** if he grew up in the slummiest part of Sao Paulo, he was in England.
And in England there are no roving bands of murderous cyclohexane-huffing orphans for the late Jean Charles de Menezes to run from.

So, dre, how should the Special Services (not regular Bobbies) have handled Mr. Menezes?

Not saying they did anything wrong besides make the wrong judgement call...

have i said anything but? Again pull your ****ing heads out for each others asses and READ WHAT THE **** I AM WRITING.

they ****ed up, he ****ed up, it IS ALL ****ED UP.

They shouldnt be so ****ing keen on allowing people under survellience to get to the ****ing metro stop in the first place.. if they are watching him that closely would it be that hard to duck him into a ****ing van or a building? NOPE

they screwed the pooch by watching to long if you ask me.. second he turned the corner and was out of view of the house douche rocket should have been jacked (maybe not around the corner but far nuff away to avoid possible CS from the baddies).

one more thing..

pull your heads out of your asses.

one more thing oaf.. you have failed to miss the point..

in brasil the OFFICALS ARE the criminals, you are applying your cultural bias in this case as you dont associate police officers and people in positions of authority with contempt are as criminals.

So when someone runs up to you claiming to be a cop waving a gun, you sit that **** your pants, and HOPE they are telling the truth.

This guy wasnt going to stick around and find out of they were legit or not.

I HAVE SEEN COPS ROBB people in brasil.. out in the middle of the ****ing road in broad day light.

so dont tell me about what you have no ****ing clue about.. i know where dude is coming from and i can empathize with him. Do i think one party is to blame more then the other? (besides one pulling the trigger) NOPE

I can see it from both sides, and if i was the guy who tackled him i would have pulled the trigger as well. Plain and simple..

what you retards fail to see is that the circumstance surrounding this horrific accident are not as cut and dry as you would like to think they were.


AND THAT IS WHAT I AM TRYING TO EXPLAIN TO YOU ****ING RETARDS

get it yet?

My goodness, you're angry.
And I almost always miss your points.

It's you with the cultural bias, not me.
No doubt in Brazil there is corruption and one must be careful when 5 armed men are running after you, claiming to be police.

However, since this was England, corruption isn't nearly as rampent and only the police have guns.
While the police have the ultimate responsibility in his death, there's a high probability that Mr Menezes would be alive today had he just obeyed the cops.

Mind showing me where he ran from uniformed bobbys? Cause all i have seen his he ran from plain clothed agents (most likely MI5).

It's pretty apparent that you never read the posts. I mention they're dressed in normal attire in the 3rd sentence of the 4th paragraph in my 2nd post.

The point is that these were authoritative figures demanding he stop. Then he runs? Again, unless he had owed money to the mob the fact he ran is as big as a red flag gets. It's not like we're talking about your average San Paulo lynch mob or L.A. gangs wearing Fubu. We're talking authoritative bobbies that probably said "stop! Police!" (not sure about that though but you're almost certain they did. Also, don't forget he speaks fluent English on top of Portugese)

So the only logical explanation is that this guy was suicidal or grossly misinformed as to what happened in London days before.

My goodness, you're angry.
And I almost always miss your points.

Me too:

salty, you just dont understand do you...

No worries, Paul. It's because our minds couldn't possibly be open to Dre's vast intelligence and logic. :rolleyes: Just like we can never grasp Scoobsport's numerous "points." It's because there's no point to be made.

My goodness, you're angry.
And I almost always miss your points.

It's you with the cultural bias, not me.
No doubt in Brazil there is corruption and one must be careful when 5 armed men are running after you, claiming to be police.

However, since this was England, corruption isn't nearly as rampent and only the police have guns.
While the police have the ultimate responsibility in his death, there's a high probability that Mr Menezes would be alive today had he just obeyed the cops.


how is it that i am suffering from cultural bias when i am presenting you with a glimpse into dudes background?

you missed it again.. at least you tried :(

never once did i say corruption is as bad in the UK as it is in brasil.. i am trying to give you background into the way the person could have been thinking. IT IS VERY COMMON IN BRASIL FOR SUCH THINGS TO HAPPEN. That being said dude was scared, and of course it is fight or flight.. you know which one he chose..

and i agree, but given the shoot to kill policy we cant say that he would have lived.. I mean they can shoot people on site if they are SUSPECTED to be involved.. suspected is pretty open to interpriation.

It's pretty apparent that you never read the posts. I mention they're dressed in normal attire in the 3rd sentence of the 4th paragraph in my 2nd post.

The point is that these were authoritative figures demanding he stop. Then he runs? Again, unless he had owed money to the mob the fact he ran is as big as a red flag gets. It's not like we're talking about your average San Paulo lynch mob or L.A. gangs wearing Fubu. We're talking authoritative bobbies that probably said "stop! Police!" (not sure about that though but you're almost certain they did. Also, don't forget he speaks fluent English on top of Portugese)

So the only logical explanation is that this guy was suicidal or grossly misinformed as to what happened in London days before.



Me too:



No worries, Paul. It's because our minds couldn't possibly be open to Dre's vast intelligence and logic. :rolleyes: Just like we can never grasp Scoobsport's numerous "points." It's because there's no point to be made.


A. he was fully aware of the happenings of london, he even told a buddy he wanted to buy a motorcycle so that he wouldnt have to take the tube.

B. You missed my ****ing point. Just because someone says they are a cop and they are wearing normals clothes and waving a gun in your face DOESNT MEAN THEY ARE. Coming from a brasilian if someone waves a gun in your face and says they are a cop you run to the nearest UNIFORMED cop and hope he isnt in on it (or you just run like hell like dude did).

again, brasilians by nature DISTRUST people who claim to be authorities. its in our nature.

if i was in his shoes i dont know that i would have done anything different..

No worries, Paul. It's because our minds couldn't possibly be open to Dre's vast intelligence and logic. Just like we can never grasp Scoobsport's numerous "points." It's because there's no point to be made.

and dont pull that bull**** card on me mother****er.. Listen, read and attempt to comrephend, if you dont get it DISCUSS IT. IE ask me why i see it this way or blah blah blah..

and im not angry, i just dont see the point in beating around the ****ing bush is all, i know all of you ****ers, i respect all of you and expect you douches to not get all pissy about a bunch of ****************

again, brasilians by nature DISTRUST people who claim to be authorities. its in our nature.

I do see your point. But how is it the bobbies fault when he has ^^this^^ reaction is instilled in his mind while in London? How can you openly accept his cultural difference (or cultural flaw in this case) as the sole determining factor for Jean and not accept that of the British and while in England?!

Like Paul said, "Don't give a **** if he grew up in the slummiest part of Sao Paulo, he was in England.
And in England there are no roving bands of murderous cyclohexane-huffing orphans for the late Jean Charles de Menezes to run from."

sad sad sad story...

its beyond cultural difference is what i am saying.. its a TRAINED REACTION.. you should know all about those.. granted his wasnt learned in XYA training course.. it was learned living his everyday life in sao paulo.. trust me living in such an enviroment certain things become habit really quikcly.. and they STICK with you for a damn long time..

guess you wouldnt know until you lived it..

regardless here is a part of the sad story..


Short walk and the No2 bus - a very ordinary journey to death

Guardian writers trace the life and last minutes of Jean Charles de Menezes

Oliver Burkeman, Alex Bellos, Tom Phillips in Gonzaga, Angelique Chrisafis and Tania Branigan
Monday July 25, 2005
The Guardian

In this image reproduced from O Globo television in Brazil, Jean Charles de Menezes is seen with his relatives. Photograph: TV O Globo/AP
In this image reproduced from O Globo television in Brazil, Jean Charles de Menezes is seen with his relatives. Photograph: TV O Globo/AP


No journey by London bus or tube is quite as mundane these days as it once was and yet, by all accounts, Jean Charles de Menezes saw his own intended journey, last Friday morning, as nothing more than another day at work.

The 27-year-old Brazilian-born electrician had been due in Kilburn, to help fit a fire alarm. The only impact the previous day's attempted bombings seemed to be having on him was the one they were having on other Londoners: they were making him late.

Article continues
"He rang me ... saying that he would be a little late because the tube lines weren't working properly," said Gesio de Avila, a builder and close friend who Mr De Menezes had been due to meet that morning for the fire alarm job. "I said, 'OK, as soon as you get to Kilburn, call me.' That was the last conversation I had with him."

Around that time, Mr De Menezes left the council flat where he lived in Scotia Road, Lambeth, and cut through to Tulse Hill, where he boarded the No 2 bus, heading north towards Stockwell. Boarding with him, it now seems clear, were several plainclothes police officers.

"When he didn't call me, I called and called and called," Mr Avila told the Guardian. "I left messages on the voice message system. I sent him SMSs. All day I was worried."

At around 12.45am, Mr Avila went to bed. "Then the phone started to vibrate by my bed. It was a police detective. He said that he had something very important to tell me."

Mr De Menezes had been dead since before 10am on Friday, reportedly shot five times in the head and back by armed officers inside a tube train at Stockwell. In retrospect, his journey was significant for its ordinariness - and for what it may say about the new calculus of risk and counter-terrorism in the capital.

Jean Charles de Menezes had been an amateur electrician since the age of eight, his relatives said, when he was given a broken radio and put it back together so that it worked. As the shockwaves reached his home country yesterday, those who knew him as a child expressed astonishment.

"It's not just what happened, but the way it happened," said Geraldo Cunha, who lives next door to Mr Menezes's grandmother in Gonzaga, southern Brazil - a sleepy town in the heart of Minas Gerais, a region famed for the number of locals who emigrate. Mr Cunha had watched Mr Menezes grow up there. "Five shots in the back of the head?" he said yesterday. "What for?"

Mr Menezes studied at the Escola Estadual Sao Sebastiãno, and took odd jobs as an electrician, but told his mother he was thinking about military service. That would be far too dangerous, she said, and so he continued to find electrical work. But then he became fed up, relatives said, and decided he wanted to do something to change the situation of his family of poor rural workers, and so in 2002 he decided to come to the UK. He was apparently rejected at his first interview, but then shortly after found an opportunity through a girlfriend in Sao Paulo.

His cousin Rubens de Menezes said he may first have come to London to work without authorisation, but had legalised his situation.

"He was legal," another cousin, Alex Pereira, 28, said yesterday, outside the police cordon at Scotia Road. He seethed visibly at what he described as the "stupidity" of the police. "He had a big stamp in his passport."

Mr De Menezes had planned to return to Brazil within six months, relatives said. "From the financial perspective, London was good," one told the BBC's Brazilian service. "But what he wanted was to be in Brazil."

His life in London seems to have been focused on his work. He did not get back to Scotia Road until about 1am the night before he died, Mr Avila said, because he had been filling in for a friend who works as a night porter at a hotel in Charing Cross. Mr Avila and Mr Menezes spent all Thursday together, working, as news of the failed bombings began to filter through.

But he "liked to enjoy life," Mr Pereira said, and had visited Mr Avila and his wife Selma last Sunday, at their house in Dollis Hill, to spend a weekend afternoon in a traditional Brazilian fashion, eating barbecued churrasco, with beef and chicken-hearts with tomato and green pepper.

He had returned home to Brazil only once, last May, when he visited his parents at the Corrego dos Ratos, an isolated farm reached along mile after mile of dirt track outside Gonzaga.

"I'm begging God for justice," Mr De Menezes's mother, Maria Ambrosia de Menezes, told the Guardian, in floods of tears. "I'm begging that the police be punished. It's not fair to kill an innocent worker.

"I told him to take care [in England] ... but he laughed. 'It's a clean place, mum. The people are educated. There's no violence in England. No one goes around carrying guns. Not even the police.'"

The No 2 bus reaches Stockwell station in about 15 minutes, following a near-straight route down Tulse Hill and through the commercial bustle of Brixton Road.

More questions than answers cluster around Mr De Menezes' final minutes when he got there: why was he wearing clothing bulky enough to arouse the suspicion he was hiding explosives? Why was he not challenged sooner? Why did he jump the turnstile when ordered to halt?

"I think that the police are inventing this thing about the thick jacket," said Mr Avila, whose number police found in Mr Menezes's mobile phone.

Mr Pereira denied his cousin would have jumped over the barrier. "Running, maybe. But not running from the police. Everyone runs for the underground. But he wouldn't jump. Why would he jump?"

He was not carrying his toolbag, both men said, because he had left it with Mr Avila in Kilburn the evening before.

Mr Menezes had been stopped twice by police in the past, said his cousin, who said that was a normal occurrence for young Brazilian men in London, part of a community of about 100,000 Brazilians in total. The police had searched his toolbag, but let him go when it was found to contain nothing but tools.

A small crowd of largely Brazilian demonstrators gathered outside parliament yesterday lunchtime, holding their national flag and decrying the Stockwell shooting.

Fausto Soares, a friend of Mr Menezes, said: "We are all terrified about the bombs, but now we are terrified of the police as well."

Mr Pereira arrived at Stockwell yesterday, flanked by reporters, to retrace his cousin's last steps.

In Brazil, the mayor had come to give Mr De Menezes' parents the news of his death on Saturday. "They brought a medical team too, since they knew we'd all be sick at the news," his father, Matosinhos Otone da Silva, said.

"I never thought it was my son when I first heard on the TV. How could it have been? He was so happy in England.

"Then I heard on [the news] that they'd killed a Brazilian, and I started to pay attention."

When the mayor arrived, Mr Da Silva pre-empted him. "It's fatal," he said. "Yes, it's about England and your son. Your son was murdered."

"We lost our heads," Mr Da Silva said.

salty this basicly sums it up...


you can take the hood out of the ghetto but you cant take the ghetto out of the hood...

same ****ing principle, goes for a more then a few marine, army, navy quotes i know as well..

im sure you have heard and probably said more then a few of those as well....

oh the irony of this quote :(

"I told him to take care [in England] ... but he laughed. 'It's a clean place, mum. The people are educated. There's no violence in England. No one goes around carrying guns. Not even the police.'"

salty this basicly sums it up...


you can take the hood out of the ghetto but you cant take the ghetto out of the hood...

Yes I agree. This is all fine and dandy until you step on your dick on different turf (England or anywhere else besides San Paulo). It makes no difference if Jean and yourself were the Eazy-E's of San Paulo back in the day. Your "hardcore" San Paulo instincts mean absolutely dick in a country where people react and do things differently. How many times must this be said before it actually sinks in?

Based on your reasoning the proper reaction from the bobbies would have been to ask the running suspect where he or she is from originally while running in pursuit. Then when he/she replies “San Paulo” (in mid sprint mind you) the police officers will be like, “Holy ****…. he’s from San Paulo guize… I’ve heard it’s pretty rough there. Let’s let him go, fellas.” :rolleyes: Is that what we should do from now on, Dre? Because this is what you're suggesting.

I’d like to hear how you would have handled such a situation. Do tell.

Based on your reasoning the proper reaction from the bobbies would have been to ask the running suspect where he or she is from originally while running in pursuit. Then when he/she replies “San Paulo” (in mid sprint mind you) the police officers will be like, “Holy ****…. he’s from San Paulo guize… I’ve heard it’s pretty rough there. Let’s let him go, fellas.” :rolleyes: Is that what we should do from now on, Dre? Because this is what you're suggesting.

I’d like to hear how you would have handled such a situation. Do tell.

The cops did tackle him, then shoot him 5 times. In my mind, once he was tackled it would be very obvious if he had a bomb strapped to him. It's hard for me to believe anyone is trying to defend the cops on this one. They shot a man after aprehending him...blatantly illegal and wrong.

Not to mention that 5 shots into a tackled person seems a bit excesive, even if he had done something worthy of being shot...1-2 bullets is enough at extremely short range, right?

no matter what the circumstances, thats a huge mistake to shoot him dead, you cant argue that he had it coming because he was running with a big jacket. maybe he had been doing something illegal...but that doesnt mean hes running from the cops (sorry...bobbies) because hes a terrorist...this calls for a big "somebody ****ed up on that one"

im just irritated that salty isnt getting my point...

uahaha

dre:

I do get your point...this time. ;)
I'll even take it a step further: your reasoning for why Mr Menezes reacted the way he did is completely understandable & logical.

I'm not supporting the police, but I think I understand why they did what they did.
They are under extreme pressure to stop these suicide bombers.
Will they over react?
Yes.
Did they over react with Mr Menezes?
Probably...but the cops don't have the luxury of checking if a suspected suicide bomber really is a suicide bomber.

Case in point:

After the OKC bombing I was investigated by the FBI...seems Mc Veigh & I were at Ft Benning near the same time.
When the questioning was over, the G Man asked for names/addresses/phone numbers of everyone that I went to basic training with.

I asked the G Man if he realized just how many people are at Ft Benning on any given day, and when he said no, I told him probably several 10's of thousands.

I asked him if the FBI planned to investigate all those peopler as well, which to me, I told him was a great waste of time.

The FBI agent replied: "After the Twin Tower bombing, we (the FBI) was criticized for not investigating enough people. So this time, we'll over react & investigate everyone that may have as so much as looked at McVeigh."

in brasil the OFFICALS ARE the criminals, you are applying your cultural bias in this case as you dont associate police officers and people in positions of authority with contempt are as criminals.

Again, Mr Menezes was in Engalnd, where police are not widely seen as criminals.
Hence, anyone that uses the reasoning that "All Brazillians know that all cops everywhere are something to be feared" is the one with a cultural bias.

dre:

I do get your point...this time. ;)
I'll even take it a step further: your reasoning for why Mr Menezes reacted the way he did is completely understandable & logical.

I'm not supporting the police, but I think I understand why they did what they did.
They are under extreme pressure to stop these suicide bombers.
Will they over react?
Yes.
Did they over react with Mr Menezes?
Probably...but the cops don't have the luxury of checking if a suspected suicide bomber really is a suicide bomber.

Case in point:

After the OKC bombing I was investigated by the FBI...seems Mc Veigh & I were at Ft Benning near the same time.
When the questioning was over, the G Man asked for names/addresses/phone numbers of everyone that I went to basic training with.

I asked the G Man if he realized just how many people are at Ft Benning on any given day, and when he said no, I told him probably several 10's of thousands.

I asked him if the FBI planned to investigate all those peopler as well, which to me, I told him was a great waste of time.

The FBI agent replied: "After the Twin Tower bombing, we (the FBI) was criticized for not investigating enough people. So this time, we'll over react & investigate everyone that may have as so much as looked at McVeigh."



Again, Mr Menezes was in Engalnd, where police are not widely seen as criminals.
Hence, anyone that uses the reasoning that "All Brazillians know that all cops everywhere are something to be feared" is the one with a cultural bias.


LOL that's right. You were at Sand Hill in the same time frame.

I was investigated for SPC. Mikal Sharov by the FBI here in Sacto. A computer genius turned unabomber that was once in my gun team. http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/85891_awol06.shtml

Anyways Dre, I'm not trying to protect the police either and do believe 5 shots was overkill (pun intended). But you have to put it in perspective and understand what they're up against. It's either react and have it come up sour (what happened in this case which was very unfortunate), react and him be an actual terrorist (in which case we would have damn-well accepted the 5 shots as good measure or passed-off them off because we were too busy being grateful that they killed him before it was too late), or the terrorist succeeds in his plan and kills dozens.

All I'm trying to say is that this instance was very unfortunate but very necessary at the same time. You cannot have your cake and eat it for this type of situation or else there's holes in the security. Holes the terrorists will gladly exploit every time.

re read my posts.. never said i blamed them as well i know where they were coming from.

and i said i would have done the same. (prob would have shot him 12 times instead of 5)

LOL that's right. You were at Sand Hill in the same time frame.

Sand Hill is for ***gots.
Real Infantrymen went to Harmony Church. ;)

A couple of details that were mentioned today:
-He ran after police walked up to him.
-He ran towards the Tube.
-He hopped a turnstile.
-He ran past hundreds of people in the station.

Oh, and another thing...maybe Mr Menezes isn't innocent.

He was an electrician by trade & the bombs in question were electrically initiated.
Maybe his mission was to run in order to test just how the English agents would re-act?

Oh yeah... i forgot you're old. Did they have the Malone ranges back then?

A couple of details that were mentioned today:
-He ran after police walked up to him.
-He ran towards the Tube.
-He hopped a turnstile.
-He ran past hundreds of people in the station.

Oh, and another thing...maybe Mr Menezes isn't innocent.

He was an electrician by trade & the bombs in question were electrically initiated.
Maybe his mission was to run in order to test just how the English agents would re-act?


keep grasping for straws.. MI5 allready cleared him from the investigation.. and you can bet your ass they did they damn homework before dropping that bombshell on their own kin..

and none of that information is new.. and from what i read they didnt walk up to him.. they walked up to him with guns drawn..

just sucks that he ran towarsd the tube, and not down the street..


regardless it was ****ed sitaution and fate wasnt shining on anyone that day..

A couple of details that were mentioned today:
-He ran after police walked up to him.
-He ran towards the Tube.
-He hopped a turnstile.
-He ran past hundreds of people in the station.

Oh, and another thing...maybe Mr Menezes isn't innocent.

He was an electrician by trade & the bombs in question were electrically initiated.
Maybe his mission was to run in order to test just how the English agents would re-act?

I didnt say he was completely innocent, I said maybe he had done something illegal...but doesnt mean he is a terrorist...how many people run from the police in America? and how many of them are tackled and shot dead? Oaf, please give me the statistic on how many bombs made for terrorist use are electrically initiated and how many are mechanically initiated...my guess is that the majority of them are electricially initiated unless they were made by MacGyver.